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COWDYDF
Mar 21, 2015 4:34:22 GMT -5
Post by Commander Tumbles on Mar 21, 2015 4:34:22 GMT -5
It sounds like in your version the planet is the topmost layer of the onion, and old ones get cast off. This could be cool, but it definitely conflicts with my ideas. As I imagined it, the other planes formed out around the Worldcore just sort of built up in twisty fractal layers around the Core, with no immediate outward effect on the planet (except, I suppose, for some portals to the first plane appearing) because they are other dimensions accessible only by portals (although they must still be traversed from outside to inside in order). The old layers do get 'pushed out' from the core by new ones forming, but because they are separate magical realities they can just... keep pushing out, forever, and can't 'run out of space' or start pushing on the mundane planet level. I dunno, I just really like the idea of the Core being like a massive organism, even if not it literally is. I just imagine them like layers of flesh, always being pushed off, but it isn't truly physically so. Perhaps the world within is simply infinitely small than the one above it. I don't know if anyone here has heard of that old philosophy conjecture of 'a universe within an atom' but it's something like that: Within the center of the universe is another universe, and so on and so forth in both ways. Onions all the way down. I really hope I explained my ideas well? In my personal opinion, we also don't need the planet being cast off as a reason to go after the core. They already have a reason: either to use it to get what they personally desire, to save the planet from the Power of Darkness, or to help said Power fuck everything up forever. I mean, the layers being cast off COULD be included as a thing, please don't think I'm dismissing your ideas they're cool. I'm just saying, we already have a main driving plot force. It looks like we also differ in our ideas of the Outsiders, and the G1s. For me, the G1s always had their memories, since that was one of the major points of the whole game plan- use our knowledge to help a new generation of Chosen do better than we did. The Outsiders were just the agents of the higher Powers (I'd actually been calling them angels in my head for a while tbh) and facilitated the whole conflict over the Core. As for the rogue player, they could be called... maybe something to do with Void, Hollow, Nihilism, Emptiness, Nothing, ect.? Because they wanted to erase reality. Or maybe they just had a normal name like Elizabeth, so everyone spoke in fearful tones of Elizabeth the bringer of the end, and by G2 time period that name is mythologically associated with that stuff so the reaction to somebody named Elizabeth would be like if someone in real life said their name was Satan (I actually kind of like that idea it sounds hilarious). I personally feel like it is necessary, or if not that, then something similar, because we would need a specific catalyst to get these [number] specific people, from this specific plane, to have their spirit guides awaken roughly concurrently and send them all on their quest roughly at once. I mean, if they set out to claim the Core because their guides awoke and told them to, that'd be fine, but what caused their guides to awaken at this point in time specifically? The way I imagine it is: When the Null-aligned player attempted to use the Core to erase everything, it took the combined might of the Lords, both Light and Dark, working in unison, to stop her (I also imagined the player as a she, don't ask me why, it was just a gut feeling.), but not by using the Core to outright destroy her (perhaps they knew that they would then have to turn on each other), so they all wished for another chance. They died, a new plane was born, and now, all these centuries/millenia/eons later, they've awoken on the same plane (the home plane) where they've found themselves bound to the Heirs already. They take it to mean that they are to aid these strangers, and in turn be aided by them, not realizing that they are one and the same, simply different fragments of the same soul. And basically I do jsut want to keep the memories locked away for the sake of potential twists. THe main I have now being that one of the main characters, whom you grow to know and love, turns out to be the rebirth of the Void player, the big enemy. All of the Lords then jump to say that she has to be destroyed, and it looks like they're gearing up to fight (and maybe they do) but then, further twist, they all realize that they are not beholden to their pasts and (ends in some way that involves all of them working together). Which sounds kinda hammy, but then again, so does a big epic showdown with only one man standing. As a pacifist, and an anti-fatalist, you can guess which one I favor.  Also, I really want the Outsiders to be related in some way to the Denizens, mainly from the way I listed in my last post, but that's mainly because I've always hated the idea of extraplanar beings that just happen to be there without any real reason for it. Sure, they are agents of the primal forces, but why would the primal forces spawn beings that are so inherently relatable to the beings living on this world, unless they were literally related to them? Overall, It seems like we have waaaaaay more differences between our cosmologies than I initially thought! Which is cool because we get to compare our ideas and help to refine them. It would especially be even better if more people would join in and offer feedback hint hint nudge nudge come on guys. Also, if I left anything out of my response or you want feedback on anything or misrepresented your ideas, please tell me! That's fine. Differences do tend to arise in collaboration, after all. c: I'm like totally contributing and stuff I basically just agree, mostly with viempth Honestly, I think the exact mechanics by which the layers behave and such should be secondary to the tone and story progression. I mean, Dune was an incredibly realized and logically driven series of books where every single little detail was explained to the fullest. Fuck, the original book shipped with an encyclopaedia of terms in the back. I mean, I realize the method by which the characters move through planets, and what happens to them is vital to the story, but some of the things we seem to be hung on are kind of silly. I'd rather not just throw out a bunch of nit-picky examples, but keep in mind we want to do this before we all die of old age, a la frank herbert Ehhh, I'm inclined to disagree, but that's mainly because I'm a world-builder at heart. My philosophy is that a strong, cohesive world is necessary for a strong, cohesive story, even if most of it is hidden from the reader (which it should be, because you don't want to bore them excessively.) You can get away with that if you set it on Earth, because, well, we live on Earth. We know about everything on it and how each thing interacts with every other thing, so you can ignore most of that and focus on the story. Fantasy simply doesn't have that liberty, so we analyze everything to make sure that it does still work, lest we get halfway through writing it before realizing "Oh wait, that doesn't work at all," and having to scrap it and start anew, or introduce loads of extraneous, unimportant things to make up for it and hoping no one notices (*Cough* Hussie). It may be far more time-consuming, but I personally believe it is much more rewarding in the end. |
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COWDYDF
Mar 24, 2015 21:10:03 GMT -5
Post by Viempth on Mar 24, 2015 21:10:03 GMT -5
I dunno, I just really like the idea of the Core being like a massive organism, even if not it literally is. I just imagine them like layers of flesh, always being pushed off, but it isn't truly physically so. Perhaps the world within is simply infinitely small than the one above it. I don't know if anyone here has heard of that old philosophy conjecture of 'a universe within an atom' but it's something like that: Within the center of the universe is another universe, and so on and so forth in both ways. Onions all the way down. I actually did originally imagine the Core as having a sort of dormant semi-sentience. Just an empty, blank, or innocent one, that copies the morality and desires of whoever reaches it first. Somewhat like a bird imprinting??? As for Onion mechanics, as far as I can tell the main point of our disagreement is whether the planet itself is a layer. Under my system, it isn't, and in fact can't be- after all, there was a point in time before the Worldcore, and before the Onionverse. I personally feel like it is necessary, or if not that, then something similar, because we would need a specific catalyst to get these [number] specific people, from this specific plane, to have their spirit guides awaken roughly concurrently and send them all on their quest roughly at once. I mean, if they set out to claim the Core because their guides awoke and told them to, that'd be fine, but what caused their guides to awaken at this point in time specifically? How I imagined it is that when the war was 'paused' the effect was essentially to shut out all associated things from reality- all intetplanar portals closed, the Forces were shut out, ect. The seal wore away naturally over time, and when it broke, it vanished as a whole- in an instant magic reemerged, the portals sprang open, the Forces regained access, and the G1s were free to bind to their hosts. Before that point, they couldn't because the Great Seal was indiscriminate, which is to say it shut out ALL magical activity which included the ghosts. There is nothing special about the specific point in time that the Great Seal broke- it just decayed naturally over the [centuries? millennia?]. The way I imagine it is: When the Null-aligned player attempted to use the Core to erase everything, it took the combined might of the Lords, both Light and Dark, working in unison, to stop her (I also imagined the player as a she, don't ask me why, it was just a gut feeling.), but not by using the Core to outright destroy her (perhaps they knew that they would then have to turn on each other), so they all wished for another chance. They died, a new plane was born, and now, all these centuries/millenia/eons later, they've awoken on the same plane (the home plane) where they've found themselves bound to the Heirs already. They take it to mean that they are to aid these strangers, and in turn be aided by them, not realizing that they are one and the same, simply different fragments of the same soul. And basically I do jsut want to keep the memories locked away for the sake of potential twists. THe main I have now being that one of the main characters, whom you grow to know and love, turns out to be the rebirth of the Void player, the big enemy. All of the Lords then jump to say that she has to be destroyed, and it looks like they're gearing up to fight (and maybe they do) but then, further twist, they all realize that they are not beholden to their pasts and (ends in some way that involves all of them working together). Which sounds kinda hammy, but then again, so does a big epic showdown with only one man standing. As a pacifist, and an anti-fatalist, you can guess which one I favor. :P Maybe you imagined the Null player as a she because of my Elizabeth suggestion? Speaking of which, can you give feedback re: that whole idea that I mentioned? Regarding G1s not having their memories- I guess it could happen? But in my conception them keeping their memories was literally the whole point of the Great Seal Plan (a plan orchestrated by Pemi?? haha b/c selkie). When they came back they would be able to share their knowledge so that unlike themselves the G2s would go in with a good idea of how it all worked. Regarding Elizabeth Null- I imagined her meeting her end at the hands of her own ideology, because imo the most satisfying villain defeats arise out of their own flawed worldviews being proven wrong and/or destroying them. But I suppose a redemption arc could also happen? And would in the end boil down to proving to her that life is more than just suffering, and that people don't all secretly want to escape via death, and that existence is actually beautiful? Which sounds cheesy as fuck and honestly I am so down for that. To really decide whether this happens would of course require better understanding of the characters. Regarding reincarnation- I suppose I don't have an inherent problem with the idea? It just doesn't really fit my current model of how the COWDYDF world works, and the mythos and cosmology I have imagined. Also, I really really like the idea of pairing G1s with vastly different G2s, and the character interactions there. So I guess overall I lean slightly against just because having a totally new Gen 2 really appeals to me personally for character and plot and the feel of the whole story that I have in my mind. Also, I really want the Outsiders to be related in some way to the Denizens, mainly from the way I listed in my last post, but that's mainly because I've always hated the idea of extraplanar beings that just happen to be there without any real reason for it. Sure, they are agents of the primal forces, but why would the primal forces spawn beings that are so inherently relatable to the beings living on this world, unless they were literally related to them? I don;t think the Angels are there for no reason- they facilitate the coming of the will of each Power. And imo, any apparent relation to the living beings of that world would just be a 'form you are comfortable with' type deal. It is very difficult to deal with people whose minds are in the process of being flayed by the glory/horror of your true from. Much better to appear as humans, or cute fluffy animals. Also, could you give more information on your ideas of the setting? You've mentioned that you dislike my idea of a mostly modern-Earth-like planet, but I don't really know about what you'd prefer. I have lots of questions: how far apart should G1 and G2 be (I honestly have no clue, myself)? What should the tech level/era of each Gen be? How many planets is the setting spread over? Are there only humans, or are other sapient species present as well? I'm like totally contributing and stuff I basically just agree, mostly with viempth Honestly, I think the exact mechanics by which the layers behave and such should be secondary to the tone and story progression. I mean, Dune was an incredibly realized and logically driven series of books where every single little detail was explained to the fullest. Fuck, the original book shipped with an encyclopaedia of terms in the back. I mean, I realize the method by which the characters move through planets, and what happens to them is vital to the story, but some of the things we seem to be hung on are kind of silly. I'd rather not just throw out a bunch of nit-picky examples, but keep in mind we want to do this before we all die of old age, a la frank herbert What parts of my stuff specifically do you like? What don't you like? Feedback is very welcome! I really hope I don;t come across as rude, but I honestly disagree with the idea that what we're discussing is largely irrelevant. The main topics right now are: How the planes work, how the Great Seal works, the nature of the Null player (a main antagonist), and the tech level and culture of the planet. These are all core, vital bits of worldbuilding, and it would be difficult to do anything else without them. For example, without knowing the setting's culture, how can we create characters within that culture? However, I also think that discussing things like themes and tone, ect., would be very good too, especially because that could impact what mechanics are decided on. I personally don;t have an exact tone settled on. It's not super grimdark, I can say that for sure. But It's not like I imagined a super light-hearted story exactly. The ideas in my head for tone are somewhat vague, and I'm having trouble thinking of existing media to use as an example :/ As for the major themes, I know that a core one is the conflict between hope and despair (with the idea of despair most clearly seen through the Null player). But like tone, I don't have many exact specifics yet. I do imagine that the story would be VERY character focused, which we would need to carefully balance with the largely external plot drive. But It's been handled in other things, so it's clearly possible to have a magical destiny quest plot and focus heavily on character development at the same time. How about you guys? Mood, themes, ect? {{oh my god ive asked so many questions in this post?? i really hope im not coming across as pushy or overwhelming? Each question I've asked is imo very important and i'd like feedback, but if you don;t have time/energy to address each one that's cool too.}} |
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COWDYDF
Mar 25, 2015 1:24:22 GMT -5
Post by Commander Tumbles on Mar 25, 2015 1:24:22 GMT -5
Like, when I say reincarnations, I don't mean that the new characters are exactly like the old. They would have similar interests maybe, certainly similar impulses and habits, but their philosophies and worldview are distinctly their own, drawing from their own personal life experiences before the quest and the Lords took residence within their mind and sent them on this wild goose chase. Regarding Elizabeth: I did actually like the idea of her leaving a legacy of despair and destruction. The players (and the readers) are tugged onto this grand quest while in the back of their minds they believe that the avatar of this madwoman could be returning to undo anything and everything. And they're right, but they don't truly know the extent of it, as though one of their own fellows may be the avatar, she herself doesn't know it, either because Elizabeth is deliberately withholding that information, or because Elizabeth herself doesn't quite realize it until later in the game (and she chooses to withhold it anyway until the very last second). This, however, wouldn't work if all of the Lords perfectly recalled every detail of their past. The way I imagine it is that, while they aren't totally blank, their memories are jumbled and fragmented (possibly die to the trauma of dying and being reborn dozens, perhaps hundreds of times. But as the Heirs travel roads familiar to their Lords, the Lords slowly regain their memory and can provide more useful information. This can help even the guides feel more like actual characters than simply living deus ex machinas, who can give any information or lend any power they want at a moment's notice. Granted, they still sort of are, because then they simply do such "as the plot dictates," but I'd much prefer if that were the case than "because they've arbitrarily decided that the players don't deserve access to such just yet," which may not be at all what you had in mind, but I have seen it in similar literature countless times before, and each time it makes the sage/mentor/scholar character seem less wise and more like a dick. It simply ruins the tension for me to know that the characters had some sort of instant win button from the beginning that they just didn't use because reasons. Anyway, the arc I had in mind for Elizabeth and her heir was sort of like this: The Heiress was rather lonely, almost totally friendless in the world (which can be a Modern Earth-like setting, I'm cool with that), and perhaps she just kind of sits around playing video games, going on long walks, etc, for most of her life, so when Elizabeth awakens, unlocking some degree of power she never knew she had, she eagerly jumps at the chance to cure her endlessly dull life. Elizabeth herself (awakens nameless, requiring the Heiress to name her, which I like to imagine all the heirs do for their respective Lords), is rather excited as well, though we can see straight off the bat that something isn't quite right with her, in some way that she interacts, but the readers who are finding out about all these characters and their Lords simply believe that that is part of the show. However, as the story progresses, Elizabeth increasingly starts to act more and more bitter, telling her Heiress to do more and more possibly cruel things, and, being her first and closest friend, the Heiress just sort of goes along with it, though not without reservations. And these things do pay off in their own way, as she slowly becomes the strongest of all of the Heirs. At this time, however, she should absolutely have met and possibly befriended a number of other Heirs as well, sometimes traveling with them, sometimes not as Elizabeth jerks her heart around. The arc climaxes as they reach the Core, and Elizabeth reveals herself at long last. For a moment it looks as though the Heiress is going to pull a Terra on us (as Elizabeth tells the Heiress to destroy the others and the Lords tell their Heirs to destroy her.), there is possibly a big battle in which she does defeat the rest, and Elizabeth tells her to finish them off. Elizabeth finally demands to know why, and Elizabeth reveals that she was friendless herself, and she grew bitter with the world and finally sought to end it and her own suffering with it. She then claims that the Heiress should know how that feels, as they are one and the same, making the assumption that the Heiress has and had always felt the same way she herself felt, but: She is wrong. The Heiress refuses, saying that she is not beholden to her past, and life is beautiful and these people are her friends and all that cheesy jazz. Maybe she can even make a noble sacrifice or two. It may be anticlimactic, but I feel like its an arc that isn't really seen as much, simply because, as you've said, it's simply so satisfying to see the villains get their just desserts, even if it clashes with my IRL philosophy of redeeming instead of simply punishing criminals. Plus, y'know, "going to fight the Evil Dark Lord and then defeating him in a straight fight" has been getting a little too overdone for a while, and while things like the arc above have been done before (see: My Terra analogy above) they really haven't been done as much. Which certainly makes it more appealing to me, personally. Also, the "traveling worn paths" idea doesn't really work in my idea after all, if, as how I described it, the lower planes formed after the Lords died. So I suppose your onion/seal idea works better. Fair enough, we can work with that. As to the outsiders: I suppose that's fair as well. That is, after all, how I described them in my original draft anyway. |
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COWDYDF
Mar 25, 2015 20:20:46 GMT -5
Post by Viempth on Mar 25, 2015 20:20:46 GMT -5
Like, when I say reincarnations, I don't mean that the new characters are exactly like the old. They would have similar interests maybe, certainly similar impulses and habits, but their philosophies and worldview are distinctly their own, drawing from their own personal life experiences before the quest and the Lords took residence within their mind and sent them on this wild goose chase. Yes, that could definitely work. It's not so much thatI dislike the idea of reincarnations, exactly, more that I really like the idea of a fresh new start with all new players unrelated to G1. It plays into some semi-developed ideas regarding the themes of the story that I can;t quite put into words. So I'm on the fence, really. Speaking of reincarnation, what did you think would be the mechanics of it? Regarding Elizabeth: I did actually like the idea of her leaving a legacy of despair and destruction. The players (and the readers) are tugged onto this grand quest while in the back of their minds they believe that the avatar of this madwoman could be returning to undo anything and everything. And they're right, but they don't truly know the extent of it, as though one of their own fellows may be the avatar, she herself doesn't know it, either because Elizabeth is deliberately withholding that information, or because Elizabeth herself doesn't quite realize it until later in the game (and she chooses to withhold it anyway until the very last second). This, however, wouldn't work if all of the Lords perfectly recalled every detail of their past. The way I imagine it is that, while they aren't totally blank, their memories are jumbled and fragmented (possibly die to the trauma of dying and being reborn dozens, perhaps hundreds of times. But as the Heirs travel roads familiar to their Lords, the Lords slowly regain their memory and can provide more useful information. This can help even the guides feel more like actual characters than simply living deus ex machinas, who can give any information or lend any power they want at a moment's notice. Granted, they still sort of are, because then they simply do such "as the plot dictates," but I'd much prefer if that were the case than "because they've arbitrarily decided that the players don't deserve access to such just yet," which may not be at all what you had in mind, but I have seen it in similar literature countless times before, and each time it makes the sage/mentor/scholar character seem less wise and more like a dick. It simply ruins the tension for me to know that the characters had some sort of instant win button from the beginning that they just didn't use because reasons. It's not like the G1s are omniscient! They just have useful knowledge. They act as spiritual guides and encyclopedias. A little bit like Navi, but usually less annoying. Like the Homestuck Trolls without the time travel, I guess? And they are incorporeal so they can't impact the world except by lending power through Spirit Fusion, which is difficult and taxing and requires that the Ghost and their Host be in sync with each other. Also, you said that a reason for the missing memories might be 'possibly due to the trauma of dying and being reborn dozens, perhaps hundreds of times.' When would they have been reborn? Why wouldn't the Quest have restarted then? Why would that be traumatic? I feel like I could understand your ideas better if I knew just how reincarnation worked. Anyway, the arc I had in mind for Elizabeth and her heir was sort of like this: The Heiress was rather lonely, almost totally friendless in the world (which can be a Modern Earth-like setting, I'm cool with that), and perhaps she just kind of sits around playing video games, going on long walks, etc, for most of her life, so when Elizabeth awakens, unlocking some degree of power she never knew she had, she eagerly jumps at the chance to cure her endlessly dull life. Elizabeth herself (awakens nameless, requiring the Heiress to name her, which I like to imagine all the heirs do for their respective Lords), is rather excited as well, though we can see straight off the bat that something isn't quite right with her, in some way that she interacts, but the readers who are finding out about all these characters and their Lords simply believe that that is part of the show. However, as the story progresses, Elizabeth increasingly starts to act more and more bitter, telling her Heiress to do more and more possibly cruel things, and, being her first and closest friend, the Heiress just sort of goes along with it, though not without reservations. And these things do pay off in their own way, as she slowly becomes the strongest of all of the Heirs. At this time, however, she should absolutely have met and possibly befriended a number of other Heirs as well, sometimes traveling with them, sometimes not as Elizabeth jerks her heart around. The arc climaxes as they reach the Core, and Elizabeth reveals herself at long last. For a moment it looks as though the Heiress is going to pull a Terra on us (as Elizabeth tells the Heiress to destroy the others and the Lords tell their Heirs to destroy her.), there is possibly a big battle in which she does defeat the rest, and Elizabeth tells her to finish them off. Elizabeth finally demands to know why, and Elizabeth reveals that she was friendless herself, and she grew bitter with the world and finally sought to end it and her own suffering with it. She then claims that the Heiress should know how that feels, as they are one and the same, making the assumption that the Heiress has and had always felt the same way she herself felt, but: She is wrong. The Heiress refuses, saying that she is not beholden to her past, and life is beautiful and these people are her friends and all that cheesy jazz. Maybe she can even make a noble sacrifice or two. :P Hmmm, lots of that sounds pretty good. However, it sounds like we have very different conceptions of what Elizabeth is like. As I initially imagined her, the decision to end reality was purely selfless! After years of observing reality and life and history, Elizabeth Lastname realized that as long as people were alive they would be hurt, and oppressed, and killed. She appreciates the work of doctors and heroes and the like, but sees them as merely treating the symptom and not the disease. As much as they might temporarily alleviate suffering, it will always exist. The only way to stop anybody from being hurt ever again is to eliminate the root cause: the very act of existing. Elizabeth is very cold and logical in everything that she does, and pursues her goal of ending suffering with an iron will and determination. Anybody who tries to stop her is either delusional or sadistic for wanting to keep reality in existence despite how much people are suffering. They have deluded themselves into believing that suffering just makes good things better, and as far as she is concerned are basically suffering from Stockholm Syndrome. At least, that is how I've always thought of her u_u Although she probably wouldn't have any friends, because she is and has always seemed very cold and emotionless, and goes after what she wants with frightening intensity of purpose. In fact, that is a good word for Elizabeth. Intense. Also, frightening. She is super logical and always works for the greatest good (ie. eliminating or preventing as much pain and hurt as possible). It's just that her logic seems weird and villain-y to other people. But in her own mind she is a lone hero, a doctor curing the disease we call consciousness, someone finally having the willpower to do what is right. He's pretty scary, man. It may be anticlimactic, but I feel like its an arc that isn't really seen as much, simply because, as you've said, it's simply so satisfying to see the villains get their just desserts, even if it clashes with my IRL philosophy of redeeming instead of simply punishing criminals. Plus, y'know, "going to fight the Evil Dark Lord and then defeating him in a straight fight" has been getting a little too overdone for a while, and while things like the arc above have been done before (see: My Terra analogy above) they really haven't been done as much. Which certainly makes it more appealing to me, personally. IMO, a villain dying at the hands of the hero can totally be a tragic waste. I'm also totally pro-rehabilitation, but I guess the way I imagine Elizabeth makes it very hard to imagine her changing her conclusion on what to do re: saving everyone. I never imagined that they would just beat her in a straight fight, obviously. If she does get killed (which is one possibility I've toyed with, the heroes trying to changer her mind but ultimately being forced to kill her (bonus points if the killer is the most timid/cutest/least violent hero)) it probably wouldn't be a dramatic anime fight. More like a long trial/ideological debate in which redemption is offered and then refused, followed by an execution. The execution would probably involve more mental combat and mutual simultaneous playing of aces in the hole each of which is informed by their respective worldviews, with the heroic one winning out. And it wouldn;t be drawn out, more like Trial over by unspoken signal and mutual knowledge without direct communication -> both simultaneously make their move which takes like a second -> Hero left standing. All very quickly. Did that explanation make sense? Because I kind of really like this idea but I'm not sure if I conveyed it well. Also, the "traveling worn paths" idea doesn't really work in my idea after all, if, as how I described it, the lower planes formed after the Lords died. So I suppose your onion/seal idea works better. Fair enough, we can work with that. As to the outsiders: I suppose that's fair as well. That is, after all, how I described them in my original draft anyway. :P So, Great Seal it is then I guess. Cool, now we have at least one solid piece of understanding to work with. Unless we change our minds of course! Are we also agreed with how Outsiders/Angels (need name for this too) work and why they look like they do? Actually how should they look? Adorable rabbit? Normal human? Friendly amorphous cloud? It sounds like we're going with single modernesque Earthlike planet as well. Speaking of which what do you think about how many sapient species there should be? Just humans, or no? Honestly I could go either way. Another question is, if G2 is analogous to modern Earth, what time period was G1? Medieval? Victorian? BCE? I really can't decide, especially given how long would need to pass between G1 and G2 to have all the G1 stuff pass into legend. IMO we should pick a century and go off of that. |
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COWDYDF
Mar 26, 2015 13:20:24 GMT -5
Post by Commander Tumbles on Mar 26, 2015 13:20:24 GMT -5
Yes, that could definitely work. It's not so much thatI dislike the idea of reincarnations, exactly, more that I really like the idea of a fresh new start with all new players unrelated to G1. It plays into some semi-developed ideas regarding the themes of the story that I can;t quite put into words. So I'm on the fence, really. Speaking of reincarnation, what did you think would be the mechanics of it? The same as reincarnation in many religion regarding it. When you die, you are reborn. You are the same soul, but otherwise are an essentially totally different person. It's not like the G1s are omniscient! They just have useful knowledge. They act as spiritual guides and encyclopedias. A little bit like Navi, but usually less annoying. Like the Homestuck Trolls without the time travel, I guess? And they are incorporeal so they can't impact the world except by lending power through Spirit Fusion, which is difficult and taxing and requires that the Ghost and their Host be in sync with each other. Also, you said that a reason for the missing memories might be 'possibly due to the trauma of dying and being reborn dozens, perhaps hundreds of times.' When would they have been reborn? Why wouldn't the Quest have restarted then? Why would that be traumatic? I feel like I could understand your ideas better if I knew just how reincarnation worked. Why, when they died of course. Either because they used all of their energy creating the Seal, or they created the Seal and then, convinced that they had succeeded, proceeded to live their life and then die, etc. Either way, they then reentered the reincarnation cycle like all lives do in the Onion and, years later, when the seal has finally broken down and shattered, do they return to "life," perhaps because the remaining energy of the Seal returned to their host or maybe there was a spiritual shockwave that reactivated that portion of their souls or whatever. Hmmm, lots of that sounds pretty good. However, it sounds like we have very different conceptions of what Elizabeth is like. As I initially imagined her, the decision to end reality was purely selfless! After years of observing reality and life and history, Elizabeth Lastname realized that as long as people were alive they would be hurt, and oppressed, and killed. She appreciates the work of doctors and heroes and the like, but sees them as merely treating the symptom and not the disease. As much as they might temporarily alleviate suffering, it will always exist. The only way to stop anybody from being hurt ever again is to eliminate the root cause: the very act of existing. Elizabeth is very cold and logical in everything that she does, and pursues her goal of ending suffering with an iron will and determination. Anybody who tries to stop her is either delusional or sadistic for wanting to keep reality in existence despite how much people are suffering. They have deluded themselves into believing that suffering just makes good things better, and as far as she is concerned are basically suffering from Stockholm Syndrome. At least, that is how I've always thought of her u_u Although she probably wouldn't have any friends, because she is and has always seemed very cold and emotionless, and goes after what she wants with frightening intensity of purpose. In fact, that is a good word for Elizabeth. Intense. Also, frightening. She is super logical and always works for the greatest good (ie. eliminating or preventing as much pain and hurt as possible). It's just that her logic seems weird and villain-y to other people. But in her own mind she is a lone hero, a doctor curing the disease we call consciousness, someone finally having the willpower to do what is right. He's pretty scary, man. That could easily work to. The main point of mine wasn't really who Elizabeth was and is, but that, no matter what, her legacy is defied and rebuked in the end. The main themes I'm trying to convey with this is that, unlike in other stories where reincarnation is a means for the hero to live up to her destiny and fulfill the goals of their past lives (*cough* Zelda), here it symbolic for not holding people accountable for their past mistakes, especially when they're attempting to make up for them now. IMO, a villain dying at the hands of the hero can totally be a tragic waste. I'm also totally pro-rehabilitation, but I guess the way I imagine Elizabeth makes it very hard to imagine her changing her conclusion on what to do re: saving everyone. I never imagined that they would just beat her in a straight fight, obviously. If she does get killed (which is one possibility I've toyed with, the heroes trying to changer her mind but ultimately being forced to kill her (bonus points if the killer is the most timid/cutest/least violent hero)) it probably wouldn't be a dramatic anime fight. More like a long trial/ideological debate in which redemption is offered and then refused, followed by an execution. The execution would probably involve more mental combat and mutual simultaneous playing of aces in the hole each of which is informed by their respective worldviews, with the heroic one winning out. And it wouldn;t be drawn out, more like Trial over by unspoken signal and mutual knowledge without direct communication -> both simultaneously make their move which takes like a second -> Hero left standing. All very quickly. Did that explanation make sense? Because I kind of really like this idea but I'm not sure if I conveyed it well. I dunno, I'm ultimately against her dying in the end, but that's just me. So, Great Seal it is then I guess. Cool, now we have at least one solid piece of understanding to work with. Unless we change our minds of course! Are we also agreed with how Outsiders/Angels (need name for this too) work and why they look like they do? Actually how should they look? Adorable rabbit? Normal human? Friendly amorphous cloud? It sounds like we're going with single modernesque Earthlike planet as well. Speaking of which what do you think about how many sapient species there should be? Just humans, or no? Honestly I could go either way. Another question is, if G2 is analogous to modern Earth, what time period was G1? Medieval? Victorian? BCE? I really can't decide, especially given how long would need to pass between G1 and G2 to have all the G1 stuff pass into legend. IMO we should pick a century and go off of that. I just imagine them looking like little motes of Light and Dark respectively, somewhat like white and black Will-o'-the-Wisps, since they are simply pieces of the Forces given consciousness. As to the shapes they take when they interact with Denizens? Why, because they expected them to. I like to imagine, back into antiquity, when the Outsiders first came into contact with them, they had just taken shapes that they had liked. Say that a Light Outsider had taken the shape of a Human with white bird wings. The tales of this interaction spread and thus the concept of angels were born. Outsiders recognized that these legends had impact of the Denizens of that particular world and so they decided that the best way to get them to do things were to take the forms of these "angels," as they knew that that form guaranteed respect from those Denizens. Meanwhile, take a Japanesque setting. Some outsider took the form of a fox-like humanoid, then happened to change shape where Denizens could see him. Thus, legends of the Kitsune were born. Arabic? Djinni. Nordic? Elves, and so one and so forth. However, as the Seal was created, most Outsiders were barred from the Onion and so the legends simply remained so. Also, maybe magic could've been brought by the Outsiders and introduced to the Denizens. On the Starting Earth-like world, perhaps when the Outsiders were barred entry, practicing magic simply fell out of practice and the secret were lost (except to maybe a few isolated tribes), but on other worlds it could still be widely practiced. Also, I don't think the G1s should all have come from this world specifically, mainly because its hard to justify some of our tech-oriented Lords coming from this modern world in the past. But that's just a thought. |
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COWDYDF
Mar 27, 2015 19:48:59 GMT -5
Post by Viempth on Mar 27, 2015 19:48:59 GMT -5
The same as reincarnation in many religion regarding it. When you die, you are reborn. You are the same soul, but otherwise are an essentially totally different person. Well I figured that, I guess I just meant more like... what is a soul? What causes reincarnation/powers it? Is it at all related to the other kind of magic, the kind that comes from the Powers and Core? If so, why does it exist before the Powers initiate contact with that species? Why, when they died of course. Either because they used all of their energy creating the Seal, or they created the Seal and then, convinced that they had succeeded, proceeded to live their life and then die, etc. Either way, they then reentered the reincarnation cycle like all lives do in the Onion and, years later, when the seal has finally broken down and shattered, do they return to "life," perhaps because the remaining energy of the Seal returned to their host or maybe there was a spiritual shockwave that reactivated that portion of their souls or whatever. How I imagined the Seal, it was utterly indiscriminate- they had neither the power or time for precision. It universally shut out all magic related phenomena. The reason for the G1s assuming the form of ghosts was to become pure magical energy that would get shut behind the Seal with the rest- otherwise, they'd just loose their magic and eventually die. This ensures their continued existence in G2 so they could help the next generation of Chosen. But it sounds like your idea of the seal works differently, and I guess the G1s just died and became souls to reincarnate normally, rather than consciously assuming a ghost state how I imagined it. My main question is why they hung on as mind buddies if that is the case (and I might not be understanding your ideas but i hope i am)? If they had reincarnated normally for however long, as entirely different lives, what happened when the seal broke that caused their newest incarnations to also be haunted by a second copy of their own soul reset to a previous life from long ago? That could easily work to. The main point of mine wasn't really who Elizabeth was and is, but that, no matter what, her legacy is defied and rebuked in the end. The main themes I'm trying to convey with this is that, unlike in other stories where reincarnation is a means for the hero to live up to her destiny and fulfill the goals of their past lives (*cough* Zelda), here it symbolic for not holding people accountable for their past mistakes, especially when they're attempting to make up for them now. That sounds cool too! It's just difficult, given how I personally imagined Elizabeth, to think of a situation in which she could be convinced against her worldview. I dunno, I'm ultimately against her dying in the end, but that's just me. *shurgs* Her not dying also sounds like it could work, depending on what we decide for character arcs and themes. Personally, I saw Elizabeth's arc in G2 as a tragedy in which she is offered help and redemption by a very selfless and optimistic person, but rejects it. Ultimately, Elizabeth's worldview and plans for the greater good can't be changed, and the one person who saw hope for her is forced to execute her to save everyone. But I mean, we're in super early 0.0.0.0.1 ideas, so who even knows! Maybe she'll be redeemed, maybe she'll die, maybe she'll do something we haven't thought of yet! Also, I imagined that given Elizabeth's level of determination and her powers (which are based on Worldview + Desires and has power proportional to conviction, so in other words Elizabeth can straight up erase shit from existence) she might eliminate her G2 host's consciousness and take over the body if her G2 partner won't cooperate with the whole 'end existence as a concept' thing. Especially given that Elizabeth never wanted the Great Seal to be a thing, and in fact it might have been created in part just to stop her. In fact maybe Elizabeth's choice of what to do with her host could relate to her being redeemed or not? But it's difficult to imagine Elizabeth sitting by passively to be the mindghost of someone who doesn't share her goals :/ But who knows! Anything is possible because we are literally inventing any and all story events ourselves. speaking of heeeeey does anybody else have opinions theyd like to shaaaaaaare I just imagine them looking like little motes of Light and Dark respectively, somewhat like white and black Will-o'-the-Wisps, since they are simply pieces of the Forces given consciousness. As to the shapes they take when they interact with Denizens? Why, because they expected them to. I like to imagine, back into antiquity, when the Outsiders first came into contact with them, they had just taken shapes that they had liked. Say that a Light Outsider had taken the shape of a Human with white bird wings. The tales of this interaction spread and thus the concept of angels were born. Outsiders recognized that these legends had impact of the Denizens of that particular world and so they decided that the best way to get them to do things were to take the forms of these "angels," as they knew that that form guaranteed respect from those Denizens. Meanwhile, take a Japanesque setting. Some outsider took the form of a fox-like humanoid, then happened to change shape where Denizens could see him. Thus, legends of the Kitsune were born. Arabic? Djinni. Nordic? Elves, and so one and so forth. However, as the Seal was created, most Outsiders were barred from the Onion and so the legends simply remained so. Also, maybe magic could've been brought by the Outsiders and introduced to the Denizens. On the Starting Earth-like world, perhaps when the Outsiders were barred entry, practicing magic simply fell out of practice and the secret were lost (except to maybe a few isolated tribes), but on other worlds it could still be widely practiced. Also, I don't think the G1s should all have come from this world specifically, mainly because its hard to justify some of our tech-oriented Lords coming from this modern world in the past. But that's just a thought. Read more: what-do-you-do.boards.net/thread/2/cowdydf?page=13&scrollTo=5886#ixzz3VdTYJfYPThe idea of the forms the Power's Agents take inspiring myths is really cool! Although I imagined that Fantasy Planet NotEarth would have its own myths unique from ours. And of course I figured that many other G1 events/creatures/people would be mythologically relevant. Maybe some of the G1s even find that they were worshipped in some cultures! TBH I imagined that G2 myth fragments would actually give relatively accurate (if simplified/stylized) versions of real G1 events. And maybe even some super mundane stuff G1s did eventually gets made into some huge epic? That would be really great IMO As for magic, as stated before, I imagined the Great Seal as universally locking up all magic stuff, hence no magic between G1 and G2. Also, among mortals, only the Chosen and people who nab Core fragments would even have had magic in the first place. You mention other worlds? It could maybe work to have them, but it brings up some serious issues with other stuff. For example: If there were other super nearby high-tech planets how have they interacted with past!NotEarth? Is there any cross-planet communication? Why would a super simple planet be allowed to exist, and not traded with/colonized? Since the Worldcore is tied to a species and their home-world... what would happen with that, would how Worldcores work need to be revised? Honestly cross-planet shenanigans and the deeply personal-to-planet nature of the Core is a large part of why I wanted to stick to an Earth analogue. As for high-tech G1s... I figured we'd just make analogous designs shifted for whatever tech period we decide G1 happened in? Speaking of! If G2=201X, what time period should G1 be based on? How much time is enough to forget G1 events? Honestly I have no clue and it seems that we would need a few millennia for it to happen which means BC era analogue... But thankfully I think we can stand to fudge the development a little because 1) made up 2) we can say that the events of G1 shattered civilization and set back human development hugely. In fact maybe that's part of why the G1s wanted a do-over; the planet got trashed and waiting behind in the Great Seal for however long would allow it time to grow back as well as give the G1s the opportunity to try and help the G2s prevent such disaster from occurring again. But yeah we need to figure out what time period/setting G1/G2 are starting in. wow this post was a mess anyway i hope you liked my weird disorganized feedback/ideas/questions because i really like getting feedback from you and your ideas are really cool |
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COWDYDF
Mar 28, 2015 13:13:41 GMT -5
Post by Commander Tumbles on Mar 28, 2015 13:13:41 GMT -5
Well I figured that, I guess I just meant more like... what is a soul? What causes reincarnation/powers it? Is it at all related to the other kind of magic, the kind that comes from the Powers and Core? If so, why does it exist before the Powers initiate contact with that species? Haven't really thought about that yet. Perhaps they were byproducts of consciousness cast off by the Core or outsiders trapped by it in formation of the Onion. Perhaps they were always meant to dwell there. I imagine that, just like Outsiders are tied to Light and Dark, Denizens are so linked to the Core, perhaps like blood to a living being. When they die, the unconscious soul is returned to the Core, and pumped back out again to find a new host, to form new experiences, with the old ones assumed to be lost. How I imagined the Seal, it was utterly indiscriminate- they had neither the power or time for precision. It universally shut out all magic related phenomena. The reason for the G1s assuming the form of ghosts was to become pure magical energy that would get shut behind the Seal with the rest- otherwise, they'd just loose their magic and eventually die. This ensures their continued existence in G2 so they could help the next generation of Chosen. But it sounds like your idea of the seal works differently, and I guess the G1s just died and became souls to reincarnate normally, rather than consciously assuming a ghost state how I imagined it. My main question is why they hung on as mind buddies if that is the case (and I might not be understanding your ideas but i hope i am)? If they had reincarnated normally for however long, as entirely different lives, what happened when the seal broke that caused their newest incarnations to also be haunted by a second copy of their own soul reset to a previous life from long ago? I've been toying around with that idea. Perhaps they set up a contingency in which they created copies of their minds to return to their soul as the seal shattered. Elizabeth, reaching the Core after the others had created the Seal, and realizing that that is what had happened, implanted her own code in the Seal that would do the same to her. They then proceeded to live out their lives.Actually, I just came up with a better idea. Elizabeth came upon the others as they were weaving the seal and, realizing that they were far enough along that she could not stop them, then inserted her own code into it from there: That the Seal would eventually fail, and that she would return when it did. Realizing that they could not undo what was already done without undoing the whole thing (which would allow her immediate access to the Core) they decided to roll with it, and they all sacrificed themselves in the creation of the Seal, to make it last as long as possible. Then, when it finally shattered much, much later (not because it totally consumed itself, but because enough of it degraded that it was no longer structurally sound), what was left (psychically) reverberated outward, until it hit the souls of the Lords, thus awakening deeply ingrained memories. That sounds cool too! It's just difficult, given how I personally imagined Elizabeth, to think of a situation in which she could be convinced against her worldview. *shurgs* Her not dying also sounds like it could work, depending on what we decide for character arcs and themes. Personally, I saw Elizabeth's arc in G2 as a tragedy in which she is offered help and redemption by a very selfless and optimistic person, but rejects it. Ultimately, Elizabeth's worldview and plans for the greater good can't be changed, and the one person who saw hope for her is forced to execute her to save everyone. But I mean, we're in super early 0.0.0.0.1 ideas, so who even knows! Maybe she'll be redeemed, maybe she'll die, maybe she'll do something we haven't thought of yet! Also, I imagined that given Elizabeth's level of determination and her powers (which are based on Worldview + Desires and has power proportional to conviction, so in other words Elizabeth can straight up erase shit from existence) she might eliminate her G2 host's consciousness and take over the body if her G2 partner won't cooperate with the whole 'end existence as a concept' thing. Especially given that Elizabeth never wanted the Great Seal to be a thing, and in fact it might have been created in part just to stop her. In fact maybe Elizabeth's choice of what to do with her host could relate to her being redeemed or not? But it's difficult to imagine Elizabeth sitting by passively to be the mindghost of someone who doesn't share her goals :/ But who knows! Anything is possible because we are literally inventing any and all story events ourselves. speaking of heeeeey does anybody else have opinions theyd like to shaaaaaaare Well, Elizabeth herself wouldn't change her mind, the Heiress would. I guess Elizabeth is supposed to be symbolic of past mistakes constantly coming back to haunt you. She's an important character, but she's not supposed to be the important character. The Heiress is. I guess, while Elizabeth herself may not be evil out of a desire for cruelty, she still does cruel and evil things for the sake of it, while intentionally misleading anyone who questions her. This should be an important interaction between her and her host: Say that the ghosts cannot do anything without their hosts conscious or unconscious approval, so she misleads the easily persuadable Heiress into think its for the greater good. This continues on to the very end when the Heiress sees for herself, with unclouded eyes, the pain Elizabeth's policies cause to her friends finally leads the Heiress to rebuke and rebuff her ghost. Or something like that The idea of the forms the Power's Agents take inspiring myths is really cool! Although I imagined that Fantasy Planet NotEarth would have its own myths unique from ours. And of course I figured that many other G1 events/creatures/people would be mythologically relevant. Maybe some of the G1s even find that they were worshipped in some cultures! TBH I imagined that G2 myth fragments would actually give relatively accurate (if simplified/stylized) versions of real G1 events. And maybe even some super mundane stuff G1s did eventually gets made into some huge epic? That would be really great IMO As for magic, as stated before, I imagined the Great Seal as universally locking up all magic stuff, hence no magic between G1 and G2. Also, among mortals, only the Chosen and people who nab Core fragments would even have had magic in the first place. I forgot about Core fragments, actually. Perhaps the fragments could be pieces of the Seal that just sort of fade in and out of existence, drifting upward until settling somewhere? Perhaps people that find them draw on the past magic of the Lords combined with the magic of the Core that entwined itself with the material of the Seal, being that they were in such close proximity for so long. But yeah, little to no magic between G1 and G2 could work, but I definitely think there should've been at least some in some planes before the Seal was created. I mean, it doesn't really matter if there is or not, because everything we know of G1 will come from myths and legends, but I do like to think of at least some of the G1 players actually practicing magic before they were called to their destiny (like Pemi's character, for one). You mention other worlds? It could maybe work to have them, but it brings up some serious issues with other stuff. For example: If there were other super nearby high-tech planets how have they interacted with past!NotEarth? Is there any cross-planet communication? Why would a super simple planet be allowed to exist, and not traded with/colonized? Since the Worldcore is tied to a species and their home-world... what would happen with that, would how Worldcores work need to be revised? Honestly cross-planet shenanigans and the deeply personal-to-planet nature of the Core is a large part of why I wanted to stick to an Earth analogue. As for high-tech G1s... I figured we'd just make analogous designs shifted for whatever tech period we decide G1 happened in? Speaking of! If G2=201X, what time period should G1 be based on? How much time is enough to forget G1 events? Honestly I have no clue and it seems that we would need a few millennia for it to happen which means BC era analogue... But thankfully I think we can stand to fudge the development a little because 1) made up 2) we can say that the events of G1 shattered civilization and set back human development hugely. In fact maybe that's part of why the G1s wanted a do-over; the planet got trashed and waiting behind in the Great Seal for however long would allow it time to grow back as well as give the G1s the opportunity to try and help the G2s prevent such disaster from occurring again. But yeah we need to figure out what time period/setting G1/G2 are starting in. Oh, by worlds I meant other Onion layers, not planets. Planets are for sci-fi, not fantasy (Cough, looking at you Pathfinder, you know what you did). I can't really give you an estimate for a time analogue either, other than: "Before a long time ago." Perhaps there are no written records because it was so ancient, or perhaps because the events of G1 did end up wiping a lot of progress from civilizations across the Planes. wow this post was a mess anyway i hope you liked my weird disorganized feedback/ideas/questions because i really like getting feedback from you and your ideas are really cool *blushes* |
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COWDYDF
Mar 29, 2015 14:00:23 GMT -5
Post by Viempth on Mar 29, 2015 14:00:23 GMT -5
Haven't really thought about that yet. Perhaps they were byproducts of consciousness cast off by the Core or outsiders trapped by it in formation of the Onion. Perhaps they were always meant to dwell there. I imagine that, just like Outsiders are tied to Light and Dark, Denizens are so linked to the Core, perhaps like blood to a living being. When they die, the unconscious soul is returned to the Core, and pumped back out again to find a new host, to form new experiences, with the old ones assumed to be lost. Making Souls byproducts of the Core could work, but it would reverse the chain of cause/effect with the two. At least I think we agreed on the Worldcore being accumulation from all of humanities hopes and wishes that went unfulfilled? Which apart from it being symbolically relevant that the ultimate power was really formed from ordinary people's hope, meant that the Core didn't always exist thus giving a reason for the Final Battle to start when it did (it only starts once the Core is fully formed, having reached a certain threshold of power. Which is also when it starts shedding power into the Shards and twisting dimensions into the Planes). If souls come from the Worldcore rather than the other way around, what signals the start of the Last War? And where do the souls originally come from? Like, at what point during development do creatures start having Core-made Souls? Is it only sapient beings, or do amoebas get them? How about snakes? I mean, the idea could work, but I feel like it raises lots of questions, and in my opinion the Worldcore resulting from consciousness and wishes is more narratively/symbolically satisfying. I've been toying around with that idea. Perhaps they set up a contingency in which they created copies of their minds to return to their soul as the seal shattered. Elizabeth, reaching the Core after the others had created the Seal, and realizing that that is what had happened, implanted her own code in the Seal that would do the same to her. They then proceeded to live out their lives.Actually, I just came up with a better idea. Elizabeth came upon the others as they were weaving the seal and, realizing that they were far enough along that she could not stop them, then inserted her own code into it from there: That the Seal would eventually fail, and that she would return when it did. Realizing that they could not undo what was already done without undoing the whole thing (which would allow her immediate access to the Core) they decided to roll with it, and they all sacrificed themselves in the creation of the Seal, to make it last as long as possible. Then, when it finally shattered much, much later (not because it totally consumed itself, but because enough of it degraded that it was no longer structurally sound), what was left (psychically) reverberated outward, until it hit the souls of the Lords, thus awakening deeply ingrained memories. That could definitely work, as it fixes the problem of multiple instances of the same soul existing. Although it then sounds like the G1s wouldn't be ghost buddies so much as... sets of unlock-able memories and powers? Which could definitely work too, I'm just personally fond of ghosty mindbuddies. Although this idea sounds much more in line with Elizabeth's G2 redeeming what Elizabeth did? If Elizabeth didn't actually exist anymore but was just memories of a past life it would work a lot better with a 'seek redemption for the deeds of a past life' arc. (Okay random third option- what if reincarnation, instead of a normal thing, was a specific part of the Great Seal Spell? This would solve the questions that reincarnation raises by not raising them, while still having reincarnation with holdover memories/powers. Of course, I still like the idea of completely new players symbolically, and really like mindbuddies, but think this could work. Of course, it does raise the question of why the G1s would reincarnate before the Seal broke so nevermind). I really like the idea that Elizabeth wrote herself into the Great Seal so that she could come back with the rest. It nicely explains why she would be under the same spell as them when it was created to stop her, and stops the G1s from being totally successful. Maybe they don't realize that Elizabeth did this at first, so nobody realizes that she's coming back too until they encounter her? Well, Elizabeth herself wouldn't change her mind, the Heiress would. I guess Elizabeth is supposed to be symbolic of past mistakes constantly coming back to haunt you. She's an important character, but she's not supposed to be the important character. The Heiress is. I guess, while Elizabeth herself may not be evil out of a desire for cruelty, she still does cruel and evil things for the sake of it, while intentionally misleading anyone who questions her. This should be an important interaction between her and her host: Say that the ghosts cannot do anything without their hosts conscious or unconscious approval, so she misleads the easily persuadable Heiress into think its for the greater good. This continues on to the very end when the Heiress sees for herself, with unclouded eyes, the pain Elizabeth's policies cause to her friends finally leads the Heiress to rebuke and rebuff her ghost. Or something like that If the ghosts are unable to act without their hosts consent that would force Elizabeth to work with and manipulate or convince her host. But that just seems with how I imagine her to be a weird place to go character-wise tbh. And it leaves a really awkward bit of character/plot since after the host rejects her ideas Elizabeth would just be sort of... there? Not really being relevant but still existing and having no real resolution to her character arc? Just chilling in her hosts mind with no impact on the plot but also neither redemption or defeat? Especially since she's the sole reason the Great Seal was made in the first place she ought to be given an actual resolution and a fully developed arc imo. Also, I've always imagined her as being sort of the main villain given that she represents despair and accepting suffering as inevitable, and I imagine the main theme as being about hope/despair so... Elizabeth is the most natural fit as Main Antagonist symbolically. I forgot about Core fragments, actually. Perhaps the fragments could be pieces of the Seal that just sort of fade in and out of existence, drifting upward until settling somewhere? Perhaps people that find them draw on the past magic of the Lords combined with the magic of the Core that entwined itself with the material of the Seal, being that they were in such close proximity for so long. But yeah, little to no magic between G1 and G2 could work, but I definitely think there should've been at least some in some planes before the Seal was created. I mean, it doesn't really matter if there is or not, because everything we know of G1 will come from myths and legends, but I do like to think of at least some of the G1 players actually practicing magic before they were called to their destiny (like Pemi's character, for one). Whale (teehee), as I imagined them the Shards were just bits of power that break off of a fully formed Worldcore periodically, and drift 'up' through the planes until coming to a stop on a random one. They worked just like little mini Worldcores in that they grant power to whoever claims them first (but can perhaps change hands). So they would be put behind the Great Seal just like every other magical thing. And having the G1s already practice magic means coming up with an entirely new magical system and source of power, so I'm personally not a fan of the idea. But maybe it could work? Oh, by worlds I meant other Onion layers, not planets. Planets are for sci-fi, not fantasy (Cough, looking at you Pathfinder, you know what you did). :P I can't really give you an estimate for a time analogue either, other than: "Before a long time ago." Perhaps there are no written records because it was so ancient, or perhaps because the events of G1 did end up wiping a lot of progress from civilizations across the Planes. Planets can totally belong in fantasy! In fact, almost all fantasy stories take place on a planet :P As for other players coming from other Planes, the problem with that idea is that the Planes don't even start to form until the Worldcore reaches full development AKA the start of the Trial AKA when the Chosen are selected. So unless mass time travel was going on they Chosen could only be picked from the actual Planet. Unless we change how the Core and the Onion work, of course. EDIT: Wow I totally forgot to address time period stuff! So, even if there are no written records, I think we still need to identify a rough time period to tell us what tech level G1 would come from, and inform their culture as well. After all, Elizabeth's design would look very different if she came from the 1200s versus 500 BC, you know? I mean it's not like it will line up with Earth exactly, but we should still determine how long ago G1 was because it informs character design (plus coming from a long time ago means culture/tech shock!). I guess you can't figure out a good duration for the G1/G2 time gap either... gosh if only somebody else could help us out HMMM *winks and nudges vigorously enough to burst into flames* No seriously though the duration of the time gap is super important and I don't really know what to do if we can't work it out :/ I suppose we don't need to know quite yet |
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COWDYDF
Mar 30, 2015 0:21:26 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by nightclaw on Mar 30, 2015 0:21:26 GMT -5
ugh I can't believe I let myself fall so far behind. Jesus. There's so much to read. And I went and came up with my own project involving fallout and the amazon and stuff. Ugu.
Can someone give me the gist of what's been agreed upon?
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COWDYDF
Apr 1, 2015 18:54:30 GMT -5
Post by Viempth on Apr 1, 2015 18:54:30 GMT -5
AFAIK
G2 world is similar to modern day Earth
Elizabeth, the Void aligned Chosen, was a main cause for the G1s to form the Great Seal (which shut out all magic/War related stuff)
The events and people of G1 inspired myths and legends
the Agents of each Power take on forms that the world's inhabitants are comfortable with
tbh I think that's it?
right now we're discussing:
Elizabeth's character arc
The nature of the Great Seal
whether reincarnation is a thing
Where the Chosen come from
maybe some other stuff too?
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COWDYDF
Apr 2, 2015 17:45:59 GMT -5
Post by Commander Tumbles on Apr 2, 2015 17:45:59 GMT -5
Making Souls byproducts of the Core could work, but it would reverse the chain of cause/effect with the two. At least I think we agreed on the Worldcore being accumulation from all of humanities hopes and wishes that went unfulfilled? Which apart from it being symbolically relevant that the ultimate power was really formed from ordinary people's hope, meant that the Core didn't always exist thus giving a reason for the Final Battle to start when it did (it only starts once the Core is fully formed, having reached a certain threshold of power. Which is also when it starts shedding power into the Shards and twisting dimensions into the Planes). If souls come from the Worldcore rather than the other way around, what signals the start of the Last War? And where do the souls originally come from? Like, at what point during development do creatures start having Core-made Souls? Is it only sapient beings, or do amoebas get them? How about snakes? I mean, the idea could work, but I feel like it raises lots of questions, and in my opinion the Worldcore resulting from consciousness and wishes is more narratively/symbolically satisfying. Oh right, I forgot about that. Can scratch that one off then. Hmm... What if the Denizens (again going off of some of my previous ideas) were Outsiders that jsut wanted to get away from it all, from both the structure of Light and the anarchy of Dark, or whatever and live lives of simplicity that they had control over (instead of simply being pawns in a larger game). So they came together and built this place, essentially an ordinary planet, or perhaps the planet always was, but they didn't know about the Core as it either formed from their collective desire for peace or, again, was simply always there. I guess either option works for me. Either way, it leads to the actual event that created the Onion as we know it, wherein the actual G1 successfully reaches the Core, and he/she wishes for exactly what they settled on the planet for: simplicity, safety, control, etc. The wish strips the denizens of the planet of their godly powers (or, perhaps, places them in mortal vessels), and kickstarts the Core, leading to the development that you drew earlier (Perhaps as a means for the Denizens to find homes in whatever circumstances they see fit, as there were now multitudes of worlds forming), and limiting Outsider interaction. Such would be ancient history, and it would hopefully answer a number of questions I've personally had (and you evidently have had as well), such as where the Denizens come from, why the Onion exists, and how people knew of it in the first place (after all, legends do need to come from somewhere). It would also answer the question of souls: They are the essences of outsiders simply being recycled again and again. Although that does bring up the question of where excess souls come from in times of population growth. Perhaps when the Original Wisher made his wish, he left his imprint upon it (Or it took imprints from all the Denizens). So it with its limitless energy began to make more when they were needed. That could definitely work, as it fixes the problem of multiple instances of the same soul existing. Although it then sounds like the G1s wouldn't be ghost buddies so much as... sets of unlock-able memories and powers? Which could definitely work too, I'm just personally fond of ghosty mindbuddies. Although this idea sounds much more in line with Elizabeth's G2 redeeming what Elizabeth did? If Elizabeth didn't actually exist anymore but was just memories of a past life it would work a lot better with a 'seek redemption for the deeds of a past life' arc. (Okay random third option- what if reincarnation, instead of a normal thing, was a specific part of the Great Seal Spell? This would solve the questions that reincarnation raises by not raising them, while still having reincarnation with holdover memories/powers. Of course, I still like the idea of completely new players symbolically, and really like mindbuddies, but think this could work. Of course, it does raise the question of why the G1s would reincarnate before the Seal broke so nevermind). I really like the idea that Elizabeth wrote herself into the Great Seal so that she could come back with the rest. It nicely explains why she would be under the same spell as them when it was created to stop her, and stops the G1s from being totally successful. Maybe they don't realize that Elizabeth did this at first, so nobody realizes that she's coming back too until they encounter her? If the ghosts are unable to act without their hosts consent that would force Elizabeth to work with and manipulate or convince her host. But that just seems with how I imagine her to be a weird place to go character-wise tbh. And it leaves a really awkward bit of character/plot since after the host rejects her ideas Elizabeth would just be sort of... there? Not really being relevant but still existing and having no real resolution to her character arc? Just chilling in her hosts mind with no impact on the plot but also neither redemption or defeat? Especially since she's the sole reason the Great Seal was made in the first place she ought to be given an actual resolution and a fully developed arc imo. Also, I've always imagined her as being sort of the main villain given that she represents despair and accepting suffering as inevitable, and I imagine the main theme as being about hope/despair so... Elizabeth is the most natural fit as Main Antagonist symbolically. Well, I'm certain she could still have that. I was just kinda pouring out quick dollops of ideas and just kinda imagined Elizabeth's story being tied to {Female Protagonist's}, in whatever way that be. Perhaps she is permanently blocked out (metaphorically slain), perhaps she remains an angry voice in the back of {protag's} head, or perhaps she reconciles her difference or philosophy (though as you're expressed, that's unlikely to happen). Whale (teehee), as I imagined them the Shards were just bits of power that break off of a fully formed Worldcore periodically, and drift 'up' through the planes until coming to a stop on a random one. They worked just like little mini Worldcores in that they grant power to whoever claims them first (but can perhaps change hands). So they would be put behind the Great Seal just like every other magical thing. And having the G1s already practice magic means coming up with an entirely new magical system and source of power, so I'm personally not a fan of the idea. But maybe it could work? I always just kinda imagined magic as being a universal constant, like dark matter or something, most likely existing as a means for Outsiders to directly affect the Universe, but that's just me. Planets can totally belong in fantasy! In fact, almost all fantasy stories take place on a planet As for other players coming from other Planes, the problem with that idea is that the Planes don't even start to form until the Worldcore reaches full development AKA the start of the Trial AKA when the Chosen are selected. So unless mass time travel was going on they Chosen could only be picked from the actual Planet. Unless we change how the Core and the Onion work, of course. Ah, I just assumed that the Onion was also a constant, that by itself it didn't really grow or change, but instead it was feeding the Onion which changed around and outside it as time passed. Personally I'm more in favor of that take because it gives more of a feeling that it grew organically, but that's just a personal thing. EDIT: Wow I totally forgot to address time period stuff! So, even if there are no written records, I think we still need to identify a rough time period to tell us what tech level G1 would come from, and inform their culture as well. After all, Elizabeth's design would look very different if she came from the 1200s versus 500 BC, you know? I mean it's not like it will line up with Earth exactly, but we should still determine how long ago G1 was because it informs character design (plus coming from a long time ago means culture/tech shock!). I guess you can't figure out a good duration for the G1/G2 time gap either... gosh if only somebody else could help us out HMMM *winks and nudges vigorously enough to burst into flames* No seriously though the duration of the time gap is super important and I don't really know what to do if we can't work it out :/ I suppose we don't need to know quite yet I'm sure we can figure it out. |
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COWDYDF
Apr 4, 2015 14:04:04 GMT -5
Post by Viempth on Apr 4, 2015 14:04:04 GMT -5
Oh right, I forgot about that. Can scratch that one off then. Hmm... What if the Denizens (again going off of some of my previous ideas) were Outsiders that jsut wanted to get away from it all, from both the structure of Light and the anarchy of Dark, or whatever and live lives of simplicity that they had control over (instead of simply being pawns in a larger game). So they came together and built this place, essentially an ordinary planet, or perhaps the planet always was, but they didn't know about the Core as it either formed from their collective desire for peace or, again, was simply always there. I guess either option works for me. Either way, it leads to the actual event that created the Onion as we know it, wherein the actual G1 successfully reaches the Core, and he/she wishes for exactly what they settled on the planet for: simplicity, safety, control, etc. The wish strips the denizens of the planet of their godly powers (or, perhaps, places them in mortal vessels), and kickstarts the Core, leading to the development that you drew earlier (Perhaps as a means for the Denizens to find homes in whatever circumstances they see fit, as there were now multitudes of worlds forming), and limiting Outsider interaction. Such would be ancient history, and it would hopefully answer a number of questions I've personally had (and you evidently have had as well), such as where the Denizens come from, why the Onion exists, and how people knew of it in the first place (after all, legends do need to come from somewhere). It would also answer the question of souls: They are the essences of outsiders simply being recycled again and again. Although that does bring up the question of where excess souls come from in times of population growth. Perhaps when the Original Wisher made his wish, he left his imprint upon it (Or it took imprints from all the Denizens). So it with its limitless energy began to make more when they were needed. Well, I didn't really imagine the Angels as people, exactly. Just broken off pieces of raw power, just drones controlled by the Powers rather than actual independent bodies with their own independent being. I suppose they could be autonomous beings instead, though. But I don't think that it's needed to answer those questions! Humans and other organisms don't 'come from' anywhere. It's just like a real life planet (at least until the Core matures and the Powers come for it). The Onion exists because of the warping effect of raw magic vented from the Core on reality, and people don't know about it (unless they're a Chosen and the Angels tell them when the War starts, or they happen to find a trans-planar portal (or something from another plane comes through and finds them)). Any legends would come from the events of G1. Honestly I feel like adding on stuff about a group of Angels breaking off from the Powers to become mortals muddles things further. It adds additional backstory that isn't really needed and is sort of extra to the main plot. It makes this planet unique from all other planets where the War between Powers was waged. It also raises some new questions, primarily regarding the state of the planet when the Angels chose to be mortal. If the core was already there, what species did it form from? What happened to them? What about other life-forms. If all humans are reborn Angels, at what stage of 'development' did they enter. Where they modern humans or an earlier ancestor? Did they just poof into existence at random locations or where they all born? If so... what gave birth to them? If the Core wasn't already there, they must have been living on-planet as full-on Angels for a long time to produce it. How did that affect the world and what civilization did they make? When their Core formed, why didn't the Powers try to claim it? Or did they, and the Angels played out the War like it's been waged over all other Worldcores throughout reality? How did that work, with the Chosen being Angels? I mean, it could work, I just feel like it raises lots an lots of additional questions, and that there's a far simpler and easier explanation. Even if reincarnation is a thing, there are simpler explanations. For example, the G1s could have written their own reincarnations into the Great Seal Spell somehow. Yeah that would mean reincarnation only happened in that case, but it would be a way simpler and easier way to have G2s be reincarnated G1s. Well, I'm certain she could still have that. I was just kinda pouring out quick dollops of ideas and just kinda imagined Elizabeth's story being tied to {Female Protagonist's}, in whatever way that be. Perhaps she is permanently blocked out (metaphorically slain), perhaps she remains an angry voice in the back of {protag's} head, or perhaps she reconciles her difference or philosophy (though as you're expressed, that's unlikely to happen). Those are certainly options, I just feel like they're very unsatisfying. Especially for a character who so perfectly stands against everything the heroes are fighting for. I always just kinda imagined magic as being a universal constant, like dark matter or something, most likely existing as a means for Outsiders to directly affect the Universe, but that's just me. I mean, magic would still be a 'universal constant'. Actually I think calling it magic is misleading. It's a term with way too much baggage attached. The way the Powers influence reality could be called magic, but that implies that the Powers use magic, which isn't the case. The Powers control and transform reality not by using or manipulating an outside force of magic, but just by doing so directly. The Chosen powers are exactly the same: making reality conform to inner desires and hopes. There's no magical energy that works as some kind of middleman, a force controlled by the Chosen to influence the world. The Worldcore is made of hopes and desires and dreams and wishes. I don't really think that I'm explaining it well (please tell me what you think I'm trying to say so I can see whether you got what I tried to convey), but what it comes down to is that magic in fiction generally implies this structure: Wizard uses a force called Magic (which exists independently of them and is its own thing) to control the surrounding world. But at least as I imagined it, there is no independent Magical Energy that can be measured or controlled. It's not like dark matter which actually exists independent of anything else and can be observed on its own, and the Powers and their Angels don't need an outside force to make outside reality take on the shape of inner desires and beliefs. Instead of has desire -> uses magic -> world changes, the power is in Hope itself. Actually because of what the term Magic implies due to usage in popular media, I might start calling it something else (Art of Hope? Hope used as a verb? lol). Ah, I just assumed that the Onion was also a constant, that by itself it didn't really grow or change, but instead it was feeding the Onion which changed around and outside it as time passed. Personally I'm more in favor of that take because it gives more of a feeling that it grew organically, but that's just a personal thing. I could have sworn that we both agreed a while ago that the other planes were twisted into existence from the Worldcore leaking extra power? WELP, now the egg is on my face DX. I personally like that origin for the Onion because it just sounds cool, means that Core Shards could have their own little Onions (like extra-dimensional dungeons! (dungeon in the rpg sense of the word not as in a place where you lock people up)), and explains nicely the origin of the Onion and the different planes that make it up using already existing systems and sources of power. Although I must admit I don't really understand what you mean by ' but instead it was feeding the Onion which changed around and outside it as time passed'. Could you maybe rephrase it or explain more? Sorry >.> I'm sure we can figure it out. :P Well I mean yeah. How about generic medieval fantasy world? Maybe that could work? |
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COWDYDF
Apr 8, 2015 12:35:54 GMT -5
Post by Commander Tumbles on Apr 8, 2015 12:35:54 GMT -5
Well, I didn't really imagine the Angels as people, exactly. Just broken off pieces of raw power, just drones controlled by the Powers rather than actual independent bodies with their own independent being. I suppose they could be autonomous beings instead, though. But I don't think that it's needed to answer those questions! Humans and other organisms don't 'come from' anywhere. It's just like a real life planet (at least until the Core matures and the Powers come for it). The Onion exists because of the warping effect of raw magic vented from the Core on reality, and people don't know about it (unless they're a Chosen and the Angels tell them when the War starts, or they happen to find a trans-planar portal (or something from another plane comes through and finds them)). Any legends would come from the events of G1. Honestly I feel like adding on stuff about a group of Angels breaking off from the Powers to become mortals muddles things further. It adds additional backstory that isn't really needed and is sort of extra to the main plot. It makes this planet unique from all other planets where the War between Powers was waged. It also raises some new questions, primarily regarding the state of the planet when the Angels chose to be mortal. If the core was already there, what species did it form from? What happened to them? What about other life-forms. If all humans are reborn Angels, at what stage of 'development' did they enter. Where they modern humans or an earlier ancestor? Did they just poof into existence at random locations or where they all born? If so... what gave birth to them? If the Core wasn't already there, they must have been living on-planet as full-on Angels for a long time to produce it. How did that affect the world and what civilization did they make? When their Core formed, why didn't the Powers try to claim it? Or did they, and the Angels played out the War like it's been waged over all other Worldcores throughout reality? How did that work, with the Chosen being Angels? I mean, it could work, I just feel like it raises lots an lots of additional questions, and that there's a far simpler and easier explanation. Even if reincarnation is a thing, there are simpler explanations. For example, the G1s could have written their own reincarnations into the Great Seal Spell somehow. Yeah that would mean reincarnation only happened in that case, but it would be a way simpler and easier way to have G2s be reincarnated G1s. Yeah, I'm probably making it way more complicated than it needs to be. I dunno if I even considered them just making their own rebirth cycle a thing until you mentioned it (Maybe it could be a plot point for one or two of the G1 players who wanted immortality so they settled with that as a form of virtual immortality). As for Angels, eh, I just imagined them as autonomous because that's always what outsiders are in myths and legends. Whether their drones or not, I feel like they should at least act like they have their own identity and motives. Hell, maybe they were just drones until they came upon the Onion and then from there started developing their own personalities. But that's just another idea seed. Those are certainly options, I just feel like they're very unsatisfying. Especially for a character who so perfectly stands against everything the heroes are fighting for. Well, even if Elizabeth is punished in the end, I really feel like it should ultimately be her host that does it, and it should be Elizabeth herself that is punished, not her current avatar. I mean, magic would still be a 'universal constant'. Actually I think calling it magic is misleading. It's a term with way too much baggage attached. The way the Powers influence reality could be called magic, but that implies that the Powers use magic, which isn't the case. The Powers control and transform reality not by using or manipulating an outside force of magic, but just by doing so directly. The Chosen powers are exactly the same: making reality conform to inner desires and hopes. There's no magical energy that works as some kind of middleman, a force controlled by the Chosen to influence the world. The Worldcore is made of hopes and desires and dreams and wishes. I don't really think that I'm explaining it well (please tell me what you think I'm trying to say so I can see whether you got what I tried to convey), but what it comes down to is that magic in fiction generally implies this structure: Wizard uses a force called Magic (which exists independently of them and is its own thing) to control the surrounding world. But at least as I imagined it, there is no independent Magical Energy that can be measured or controlled. It's not like dark matter which actually exists independent of anything else and can be observed on its own, and the Powers and their Angels don't need an outside force to make outside reality take on the shape of inner desires and beliefs. Instead of has desire -> uses magic -> world changes, the power is in Hope itself. Actually because of what the term Magic implies due to usage in popular media, I might start calling it something else (Art of Hope? Hope used as a verb? lol). Well, you kinda made it sound like magic or magic-like acts weren't really a thing before the Great Seal, which I disagreed with mainly because characters like Pemi specifically wanted to be magic-based, which would be difficult if there just wasn't any magic at all. I could have sworn that we both agreed a while ago that the other planes were twisted into existence from the Worldcore leaking extra power? WELP, now the egg is on my face DX. I personally like that origin for the Onion because it just sounds cool, means that Core Shards could have their own little Onions (like extra-dimensional dungeons! (dungeon in the rpg sense of the word not as in a place where you lock people up)), and explains nicely the origin of the Onion and the different planes that make it up using already existing systems and sources of power. Although I must admit I don't really understand what you mean by ' but instead it was feeding the Onion which changed around and outside it as time passed'. Could you maybe rephrase it or explain more? Sorry >.> Oh, whoops, I meant to say the Core was a constant and that it fed the Onion (basically, creating more layers). But yeah, I did want the layers/planes to be created by the Core, but you kinda made it sound like the other layers didn't really exist before the G1 players set out on their quests, but I think that's mainly because oyu say "before the events of G1," which is actually a little hard to interpret. By that do you mean, "Before the G1 Quest started," or "before the entirety of the Onion/planet's history that culminated in the Quest?" Mainly because, eh, the main reason I wanted to have a multiplaner/multiworld thing is to explain why all of the G1 characters were so diverse and unique from each other (as in, why is there a seal-girl who uses ice magic, a cybernetic primate, and a literal talking jar of honey all hanging out together) and the best way I figured to do that would be to set them in their own little mini-universes. Of course, I now realize that that can be solved with: Well I mean yeah. How about generic medieval fantasy world? Maybe that could work? Maybe it was a super advanced magitek sort of universe, that was incredibly scientifically advanced and used cast-off mini-cores to power it all (such would allow for any number of weird cool sci-fantasy backstories of our characters. Essentially Gunnerkrigg if it was the entire world [which I can only imagine was one of your main inspirations anyway ]). Then the Core finally reached maturity, the Powers came and caused the world to war, undoing centuries or millenia of progress, and causing the G1 players to set off on their quests. I mean, the suffering of so many due to war is certainly one reason I can imagine Elizabeth attempting to cure it. Then, at the end of their adventure, they seal off the Core, (effectively ending the war by shutting down almost all of their technology and banishing the true aggressors), causing civilization to need to begin anew again. Now, centuries or millenia later, the Seal is finally breaking and the power of the Core is beginning to leak back into the world. Thus begins the show. |
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Post by Honeyman on Apr 9, 2015 4:30:58 GMT -5
I was gone for a while. I would definitely not mind a little synopsis of everything so far.
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COWDYDF
Apr 9, 2015 23:31:10 GMT -5
Post by Viempth on Apr 9, 2015 23:31:10 GMT -5
Yeah, I'm probably making it way more complicated than it needs to be. I dunno if I even considered them just making their own rebirth cycle a thing until you mentioned it (Maybe it could be a plot point for one or two of the G1 players who wanted immortality so they settled with that as a form of virtual immortality). Maybe! It can be really easy to overcomplicate a setting (I know I've done it enough >_>). Not that the idea of the agents of the ultimate powers forsaking an ancient struggle to become mortal isn't super neat, it just... doesn't fit into the current story, I think. If you really do want to include reincarnation, I think that making it part of the Great Seal Spell is the best bet (since it only uses pre-existing elements of the story), and it seems like you like the idea, so how about going with it? Although, I'm still not so sure about having the G2s be the G1s reincarnated (I like just like the idea of having a fresh new set of unrelated Chosen personally appealing). Personally, I think that now that we have the mechanics worked out, we should wait until somebody else chips in on whether to have reincarnation- otherwise we could be going back and forth forever! As for Angels, eh, I just imagined them as autonomous because that's always what outsiders are in myths and legends. Whether their drones or not, I feel like they should at least act like they have their own identity and motives. Hell, maybe they were just drones until they came upon the Onion and then from there started developing their own personalities. But that's just another idea seed. I'm totally fine with them having some degree of autonomy. I just figured that, since (at least in my mind) they were just broken off bits of each Power they wouldn't even be able to want to rebel. The Powers, in my imagination, are like pure archetypes or constants- the raw, primal forces of Light and Dark. They're ways of thought and action, and ways that reality unfolds. So any piece of Light, for instance, will only ever act in ways aligning with Light. A creature literally made of the act of creation isn't exactly going to start breaking things, after all. But that's just how I imagined it. I did still figure that Angels would each have some unique personality, just one made from traits aligned with their Power. The idea of an Angel sort of mutating away from Light or Dark is a neat idea- but of course if we included it we'd need to be careful that it fit into the story and didn't over-stuff it, just as with the Angels -> mortals idea. Well, even if Elizabeth is punished in the end, I really feel like it should ultimately be her host that does it, and it should be Elizabeth herself that is punished, not her current avatar. Well I didn't figure that Elizabeth's host would be punished for Elizabeth's deeds. Nor did I really think of Elizabeth being punished at all really. I just think that she makes the most sense as the Big Bad. Hence, my idea from a while ago that she could use her powers to kill the host consciousness and take over. Or maybe she somehow gets a new body, or convinces another player to help her, or something. No matter how, I really think that since Elizabeth fits so well symbolically as the ultimate force of Despair she should be the Big Bad. Especially since she was (at least part of) the whole reason that the Great Seal was cast! Imagine the heroes' despair when they realize that their plan was for nothing, and they couldn't stop Elizabeth after all :^) Well, you kinda made it sound like magic or magic-like acts weren't really a thing before the Great Seal, which I disagreed with mainly because characters like Pemi specifically wanted to be magic-based, which would be difficult if there just wasn't any magic at all. You kind of got it backwards! The Great Seal was a seal on magic, so magic wouldn't be a thing when it was around. Only before and after. Although the 'before the Seal' part would actually be the span of the G1 war (Final Battle Round One?). I do recognize that this could conflict with the idea of magic-based characters. However, I think that adding another source of magical power to the setting would be needless over-complication. The magic-based heroes can just get more obviously magical and flashy Chosen powers. It could be virtually exactly the same except that they wouldn't start getting their powers until they were Chosen (aka the War starts). I hope I'm making sense? Oh, whoops, I meant to say the Core was a constant and that it fed the Onion (basically, creating more layers). But yeah, I did want the layers/planes to be created by the Core, but you kinda made it sound like the other layers didn't really exist before the G1 players set out on their quests, but I think that's mainly because oyu say "before the events of G1," which is actually a little hard to interpret. By that do you mean, "Before the G1 Quest started," or "before the entirety of the Onion/planet's history that culminated in the Quest?" Mainly because, eh, the main reason I wanted to have a multiplaner/multiworld thing is to explain why all of the G1 characters were so diverse and unique from each other (as in, why is there a seal-girl who uses ice magic, a cybernetic primate, and a literal talking jar of honey all hanging out together) and the best way I figured to do that would be to set them in their own little mini-universes. Well, in my cosmology, there is no 'entirety of the Onion/planet's history that culminated in the Quest'. The Worldcore only starts to form the Onion once it matures and reaches the 'critical mass' of hope that gives it its wish-granting power. And only when mature does the Worldcore start shedding power into the Planes and Shards. It has changed states. This is when the Powers start the war, because it's only when the Core fully forms that it becomes valuable to war over (before that point, it can;t grant wishes). The start of the War is the start of the Onion. So when I say before the events of G1, I mean a time before the Powers ever touched the world, before the Worldcore manifested. An utterly mundane world just like ours (well okay, not just like ours obviously it's a fictional planet, but you know what I mean). As for why all the G1 characters were so diverse? My solution was... they aren't. They're human equivalents of our avatars rather than literally them. Unless we do decide on having multiple sapient species, which I am totally down for. But even then, the tech-based characters would have to be scaled down in tech level to fit the G1 era- although once Chosen their powers could include magitech stuff that approximates the tech in their original designs. Of course that's just how I imagined it, and we can totally go with something different. We'd just need different mechanics for the Worldcore and the Planes. Maybe it was a super advanced magitek sort of universe, that was incredibly scientifically advanced and used cast-off mini-cores to power it all (such would allow for any number of weird cool sci-fantasy backstories of our characters. Essentially Gunnerkrigg if it was the entire world [which I can only imagine was one of your main inspirations anyway :P]). Then the Core finally reached maturity, the Powers came and caused the world to war, undoing centuries or millenia of progress, and causing the G1 players to set off on their quests. I mean, the suffering of so many due to war is certainly one reason I can imagine Elizabeth attempting to cure it. Then, at the end of their adventure, they seal off the Core, (effectively ending the war by shutting down almost all of their technology and banishing the true aggressors), causing civilization to need to begin anew again. Now, centuries or millenia later, the Seal is finally breaking and the power of the Core is beginning to leak back into the world. Thus begins the show. Maybe that could work. Although the way I imagined it the Core doesn't start shedding shards until it matures. Before then, it's still forming, condensing out of raw wishes and desire. The Worldcore reaching maturity is the state change from accumulating power to radiating it. Essentially, it is the point at which the Worldcore has grown so vast and mighty that it becomes almost like a self-sustaining star of raw power. The way I figured this gave a reason for the war to start when it does, because if the Worldcore was producing Shards the Powers would have come in to fight over who gets them. But yeah there could be a different set of mechanics for the Worldcore, and a different event marking the starting point of the War. In the interest of coming up with a different rule set, can I ask you how you imagined the Worldcore and the War to work? I feel like I spend so much time blabbing about my own cosmology, and have heard little of yours! :O Also, I feel that overall this post might be even more disjointed than usual (I'm kind of tired right now) so if anything at all seems ambiguous or my wording isn't clear, please do tell me! I was gone for a while. I would definitely not mind a little synopsis of everything so far. *clears throat* Gather round, dear children, at let me tell you a story. It is a story of hope. It is a story of deep, deep despair. Long ago, in a world much like this one... Two primordial forces, the powers of Light and Darkness, waged a great war. Both sought an immense power, the power to grant any wish. But they did not fight alone. From among the people of that world, the agents of Light and Darkness each selected their champions- a chosen few empowered by each side to travel through the inner planes and seek out the core of the world, and the power it held. But one Chosen was not like the others. Long had she seen all the world's suffering, and long had she sought to end it. Faced with a new war, the greatest the world would ever see, she was struck with a great despair. Look at them, she said. Medicines and technology cannot help them. No lullaby can put them to rest. War, plague, famine, loss- to be live is itself to suffer. Life itself then, she said, is the final enemy to be defeated. I will belong to neither Light nor Darkness, but nothingness itself. And for this reason she sought the core of the world. Though opposed by both Light and Darkness, her will never broke. And the world was almost lost to the void. However, before her wish came to pass, the remaining Chosen from both sides united, and together fashioned a Great Seal. Behind it was locked Light, Darkness, the core of the world, and all the remnants of the great war. And for a time, the world knew peace. But no peace lasts forever. Knowing this, the Chosen laced another spell into the Great Seal- when the Seal broke, and the War was again unleashed upon the helpless world, a remnant of themselves would remain and help the next generation of Chosen prevent the cataclysmic destruction wrought by the first War. Little did they know, that she who chose the path of void wrote a spell of her own devising. And so, long after the first War was lost to myth and legend, she returned with the others. Who will win the second War? What tragedies will be wrought by its coming? Who are these new Chosen, and what paths will they take? That... is a story for another day... ((randomly summarizes via shitty fairy tale??? honestly though we don't have that much decided, that story pretty much covers it. There are lots of concentric metaphysical planes, at the center of which is the Worldcore, which can grant any wish. The Powers of Light and Dark fight over it via their champions, the Chosen, who get magic powers. One Chosen (Elizabeth) decides to use the Worldcore to End Suffering by erasing existence itself. To stop her and give the world time to heal after the war the Great Seal, which seals up Light, Darkness, the portals between planes, ect. is made. eventually the events of this first war (called G1, short for generation one, which is also the term for the Chosen that fought it) become legends and myths. By this point the world is at a tech level roughly equivalent to 2015 Earth. The Seal breaks, Light and Dark and all that other magic stuff returns, and G2 (generation two) of the war is on. But instead of going in blind the G2 Chosen each get a sort of ghost of one of the G1s bound to them as a mind-buddy and helpful guide. They can also temporarily fuse powers. Other than that everything is undecided.)) |
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