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COWDYDF
Jun 18, 2015 16:26:35 GMT -5
Post by Commander Tumbles on Jun 18, 2015 16:26:35 GMT -5
That's a good origin for magic in the world. However, I think that introducing themselves and their powers pre-war wouldn't necessarily be something the Powers would do, for precisely the reasons you've outlined here. I guess creating a situation of escalating violence and warfare and thus risking either wiping out the population before they make a functional Worldcore or turning that population against them seems like... kind of a rookie mistake? The Powers have been warring in situations like this one for just about eternity, so it seems like they would have a better handle on things by this point. I could even imagine that sort of being a thing between the powers- neither will mess with a planet's pre-Worldcore development, under threat of mutual annihilation of that planet. But that's just an idea. Also, in this version of the cosmology, what determines who gets Chosen is skill or power level or whatever. How I imagined it, the main determining factor is conviction or willpower- the stronger and deeper the desire and the belief that the desire can and should be reality, the greater the magic they gain, and the more the Worldcore reacts. So a Chosen might be someone totally unskilled and inexperienced, with only a strong heart or a great capacity for hope. On the other hand, if someone with no strong convictions got the Worldcore, it might barely do anything because there's no deep, pure wish to latch on to. I personally think that besing who the Chosen are on essentially willpower or 'heart' would be really symbolically satisfying and fun. Which is actually most of the reasoning behind virtually all of my ideas- I'm sort of going for a certain feel and certain archetypes over pretty much anything else. Also, I did imagine that G2 of the war starts very much immediately after the Great Seal breaks, rather than there being a long 'waiting period'. But again, that's just me. As for the consciousness of the G1s being bound to Worldcore Shards? I guess that could work, but personally I don't feel that it's very necessary. Why go out of our way to come up with a reason that the G1s get bound to fragments that get claimed by the G2 chosen, when we could just say something like 'as part of the Great Seal Spell, the G1s survived by becoming guides for the G2s'. idk Fair point. Maybe it could be for a number of reasons, like, perhaps they've been at it for so long that they've tried to experiment with different methods, like, in my example, where perhaps Dark tried to one-up Light by getting a head start, and not expecting them to retaliate in kind. Or perhaps they don't really care about Denizens, as long as at least one of them is alive to make the wish, then they're all disposable. Or perhaps their ultimate contingency is that, even if they accidentally eliminate the race, then at least they've made sure that that specific Core doesn't fall into the enemy's hands. I dunno, the sides just strike me as being totally alien and above the needs of any mortal race, that they are totally incomprehensible, and are so thoroughly wrapped up in their own conflict of literally universal importance, that they give no true thought to the lesser races other than as an exploitable resource, a means to an end, hopefully, the ultimate one that would justify any and all sacrifices that were made on their behalf. At least, that was my impression. It would certainly make sure there isn't necessarily a "right" side and a "wrong" side. They're simply two sides in an everlasting conflict. As for conviction and heart fueling magic, it makes sense to me. After all, no matter your skill level, the best art comes from those who've truly poured their heart and soul into their works. But skill is still important too.  As for me, basically I've been modeling it after the Cold War, with the two sides representing the obvious two sides of that war and the Worlds being (spiritually) representative of the regions we exploited during it. And nah, I wasn't too fond of that specific shard idea either, I jsut feel it might be best to throw any and all ideas out there jsut in case.  Hehe, it could be a nice homage to have the main Agents of Light/Dark appear as such in at least one of their forms. But then, I personally would feel really weird doing it? Using their likenesses like that even if we did have permission (which we do not). Fair enough. We can start asking permission for cameos and such as we start actually working on it. As for characters, only Pemi responded (she said yes). I'm sure Wolfe wouldn't mind but we'd still need to ask. Have no idea about everyone else. |
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COWDYDF
Jun 28, 2015 21:11:23 GMT -5
Post by Commander Tumbles on Jun 28, 2015 21:11:23 GMT -5
Also, I think when we're in guide form, we should take on animal shapes. Like, it's been suggested before, I think, but now I'm totally on board with it.
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COWDYDF
Jul 2, 2015 13:59:45 GMT -5
Post by Viempth on Jul 2, 2015 13:59:45 GMT -5
Fair point. Maybe it could be for a number of reasons, like, perhaps they've been at it for so long that they've tried to experiment with different methods, like, in my example, where perhaps Dark tried to one-up Light by getting a head start, and not expecting them to retaliate in kind. Or perhaps they don't really care about Denizens, as long as at least one of them is alive to make the wish, then they're all disposable. Or perhaps their ultimate contingency is that, even if they accidentally eliminate the race, then at least they've made sure that that specific Core doesn't fall into the enemy's hands. I dunno, the sides just strike me as being totally alien and above the needs of any mortal race, that they are totally incomprehensible, and are so thoroughly wrapped up in their own conflict of literally universal importance, that they give no true thought to the lesser races other than as an exploitable resource, a means to an end, hopefully, the ultimate one that would justify any and all sacrifices that were made on their behalf. At least, that was my impression. It would certainly make sure there isn't necessarily a "right" side and a "wrong" side. They're simply two sides in an everlasting conflict. I also figured the Powers would be far above concern over any one planet or species. Really, I didn't actually imagine them as being sentient or alive at all, but more like raw ideals. Actually, we still need to figure out exactly what each Power stands for. Maybe Light as Order, Reason, and Sacrifice and Dark as Chaos, Absurdity, and Selfishness? I also feel like maybe after that we should rename them? And stop just calling them Light and Dark. As for conviction and heart fueling magic, it makes sense to me. After all, no matter your skill level, the best art comes from those who've truly poured their heart and soul into their works. But skill is still important too. ;) The way magic works under my system, it's just a matter of taking your innermost desire or the concept at the core of your being, and making the outside world align to it. Thus, a person with a stronger sense of self and more conviction in what they stand for will have more raw power. This also means that becoming more powerful is directly tied to character development. I sort of figured that training and practice could still help you get stronger and refine your powers, though. It just wouldn't have as much of an effect as self-discovery and conviction. As for me, basically I've been modeling it after the Cold War, with the two sides representing the obvious two sides of that war and the Worlds being (spiritually) representative of the regions we exploited during it. Oh? That would be an interesting way of doing things. Could you maybe elaborate a bit more on what you think this would entail? And nah, I wasn't too fond of that specific shard idea either, I jsut feel it might be best to throw any and all ideas out there jsut in case. :P Alright. It's probably actually a good idea to put any ideas we have out just in case we hit gold. I mean, we are still kind of in the early brainstorming/pre-planning stage. Fair enough. We can start asking permission for cameos and such as we start actually working on it. As for characters, only Pemi responded (she said yes). I'm sure Wolfe wouldn't mind but we'd still need to ask. Have no idea about everyone else. Sounds good! Speaking of the Chosen, after figuring out which of us are G1s we should decide the total number of Chosen in each generation (which should be an even number, and the same in each gen). Then as part of figuring out the character concepts we need to decide who was Chosen by each Power (half Chosen by Light, half by Dark). Also, I think when we're in guide form, we should take on animal shapes. Like, it's been suggested before, I think, but now I'm totally on board with it. maybe! I'm not sure exactly why it would happen but it could be a cool fun thing. Personally though I kind of prefer the idea that the guides appear as they did when alive. Actually, speaking of the G1s, I know that this totally goes against our basic premise but what if... they weren't brain ghosts? What if after the Great Seal breaks they just pop into modern day Whateverplanet as alive physical guys?? Honestly I have no idea whether this would be a good or bad thing or even the degree to which it would change the story. Just figured I'd throw it out there since I've been thinking about it. |
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COWDYDF
Jul 4, 2015 21:23:40 GMT -5
Post by Commander Tumbles on Jul 4, 2015 21:23:40 GMT -5
I also figured the Powers would be far above concern over any one planet or species. Really, I didn't actually imagine them as being sentient or alive at all, but more like raw ideals. Actually, we still need to figure out exactly what each Power stands for. Maybe Light as Order, Reason, and Sacrifice and Dark as Chaos, Absurdity, and Selfishness? I also feel like maybe after that we should rename them? And stop just calling them Light and Dark. I'm actually fine with calling them Light and Dark. It's grown on me, mainly because of the way I've been framing them. The names are specific enough that they can have those specific connotations, yet they're also vague enough that they could mean virtually anything, really. The common fantasy trope is that light is good and dark is evil. And that makes sense, we are diurnal, dark obscures things while light reveals them. But you can take them in opposite directions as well. Light can be bad, say you stare at the sun and go blind, and dark can be good, say you seek shade from the summer sun. Simply, they are probably the best names we could choose. They feel primal, and have implicit meaning, ones that could be better represented than simply calling them Order/Chaos or something along those lines. But yeah, my idea was that, while the two sides do represent their ideals (ie, structure and freedom, possibly) they're ultimately more concerned in upholding and defending those ideals than they are actually applying them. They're so caught up in attempting to defeat the other side that they don't really notice who they step over. This was basically what I based off of the Cold War. For members of the two nations, of the two Unions, only the citizens of those superpowers actually care about the meaning of the struggle. To everyone else, they're essentially bullies. Sure, we considered ourselves the good guys, we're the champions of freedom! But we did a lot of horrible things in that war, from invading small Asian nations simply for the purposes of making sure the Soviets couldn't get to them first (and ended up turning them against us), to installing puppet governments to protect our economic means, to arming and training Islamic Extremist organization that eventually ended up causing one of our greatest homeland tragedies. And the Soviets were easily just as bad! It's an easy comparison to make to two equally ideologically opposed, universal forces that scour their domain looking for superweapons that will help them gain the upper hand. So, while the story begins with the readers and the characters believing that the old standbys are true, with Light players being convinced that they're representative of order and justice, and Dark players convinced that their side is misunderstood, being representative of freedom and fun, we and they eventually come to realize that they were simply being used to further others' goals, and that neither side is necessarily preferable over the other. Day cannot exist without night, after all; were the planet to stop rotating, one side would cook while the other would freeze. (actually, that could be a cool idea for a layer...) The way magic works under my system, it's just a matter of taking your innermost desire or the concept at the core of your being, and making the outside world align to it. Thus, a person with a stronger sense of self and more conviction in what they stand for will have more raw power. This also means that becoming more powerful is directly tied to character development. I sort of figured that training and practice could still help you get stronger and refine your powers, though. It just wouldn't have as much of an effect as self-discovery and conviction. Works for me. Sounds good! Speaking of the Chosen, after figuring out which of us are G1s we should decide the total number of Chosen in each generation (which should be an even number, and the same in each gen). Then as part of figuring out the character concepts we need to decide who was Chosen by each Power (half Chosen by Light, half by Dark). Sounds good to me. Also, I got Forever to sign on. maybe! I'm not sure exactly why it would happen but it could be a cool fun thing. Personally though I kind of prefer the idea that the guides appear as they did when alive. I dunno, maybe everyone had a specific animal they really liked, and such was a way they subconsciously chose to appear. (Like, Pemi = seals, CMP = monkeys, You = whales, I guess?, and I could be a birb. :3) Actually, speaking of the G1s, I know that this totally goes against our basic premise but what if... they weren't brain ghosts? What if after the Great Seal breaks they just pop into modern day Whateverplanet as alive physical guys?? Honestly I have no idea whether this would be a good or bad thing or even the degree to which it would change the story. Just figured I'd throw it out there since I've been thinking about it. I feel like if the G1 players physically appeared, it would mean that they could then carry out their goals unassisted. Yes, maybe they'd still have amnesia, but even if that means they then got the G2 players to help each of them in their own ways, it would take the story more away from the G2 players, whom I think the story should definitely focus on the most. It could work if we wanted it to, but I think it would have to drastically change the story if we did. |
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COWDYDF
Jul 8, 2015 19:36:44 GMT -5
Post by Commander Tumbles on Jul 8, 2015 19:36:44 GMT -5
Also, been on the subject of throwing out ideas, I figured we should collect some possible character themes, and with them, powersets of sorts.
Emotion
Vision/Knowledge
Dreams
Creation
Preservation
Destruction (Elizabeths?)
Change
Time (I advise against this)
Color
Form
Motion
Beasts
Blades/Steel
Mind
Body
Soul
Unity
Geography
Gravity
Strong Force
Weak Force
Magnetism
I don't really know what most of these would entail, but I figured it would give us a good list of options to start from (plus more I haven't thought of). I suppose we could also include the classical elements, but... ehhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh...
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COWDYDF
Jul 12, 2015 17:19:30 GMT -5
Post by Viempth on Jul 12, 2015 17:19:30 GMT -5
I'm actually fine with calling them Light and Dark. It's grown on me, mainly because of the way I've been framing them. The names are specific enough that they can have those specific connotations, yet they're also vague enough that they could mean virtually anything, really. The common fantasy trope is that light is good and dark is evil. And that makes sense, we are diurnal, dark obscures things while light reveals them. But you can take them in opposite directions as well. Light can be bad, say you stare at the sun and go blind, and dark can be good, say you seek shade from the summer sun. Simply, they are probably the best names we could choose. They feel primal, and have implicit meaning, ones that could be better represented than simply calling them Order/Chaos or something along those lines. All right, let's just go with Light/Dark! But yeah, my idea was that, while the two sides do represent their ideals (ie, structure and freedom, possibly) they're ultimately more concerned in upholding and defending those ideals than they are actually applying them. I see where you're coming from, I think it could work. But as I imagined them, the two Powers weren't really actually separate things from the ideals they represented. The Powers are the raw embodiment of different ways reality can unfold. Whenever water freezes (becoming more orderly), or someone sacrifices themself for somebody else, that IS Light. They aren't beings who hold and uphold ideals, they ARE ideals. Just ideals so primal and powerful that they can project physical manifestations to directly bring themselves about. Honestly I'm having trouble explaining it... They're so caught up in attempting to defeat the other side that they don't really notice who they step over. This was basically what I based off of the Cold War. For members of the two nations, of the two Unions, only the citizens of those superpowers actually care about the meaning of the struggle. To everyone else, they're essentially bullies. Sure, we considered ourselves the good guys, we're the champions of freedom! But we did a lot of horrible things in that war, from invading small Asian nations simply for the purposes of making sure the Soviets couldn't get to them first (and ended up turning them against us), to installing puppet governments to protect our economic means, to arming and training Islamic Extremist organization that eventually ended up causing one of our greatest homeland tragedies. And the Soviets were easily just as bad! It's an easy comparison to make to two equally ideologically opposed, universal forces that scour their domain looking for superweapons that will help them gain the upper hand. That makes a lot of sense, I completely agree. After all, Light and Dark are so much older and vaster than anything else- they would probably care for ordinary individuals as much as we care for single bacteria. Lab-grown bacteria engineered to make a certain useful compound. So, while the story begins with the readers and the characters believing that the old standbys are true, with Light players being convinced that they're representative of order and justice, and Dark players convinced that their side is misunderstood, being representative of freedom and fun, we and they eventually come to realize that they were simply being used to further others' goals, and that neither side is necessarily preferable over the other. Day cannot exist without night, after all; were the planet to stop rotating, one side would cook while the other would freeze. That's basically what I figured would happen. A universe of complete Light is frozen stasis- perfect order that will never be disrupted, like an eternal, inanimate crystal. A universe of complete Dark is meaningless- just random chaos with no underlying structure or rules of any kind. (actually, that could be a cool idea for a layer...)l Hell yeah. Sounds good to me. Also, I got Forever to sign on. Nice! I dunno, maybe everyone had a specific animal they really liked, and such was a way they subconsciously chose to appear. (Like, Pemi = seals, CMP = monkeys, You = whales, I guess?, and I could be a birb. :3)/quote] I guess that sounds fine. Maybe they can take animal or human form? Also, either way, the animal Elizabeth takes the form of? A human. Actually, what if a 'beast form' is just a basic power every Chosen gets? Some kind of cool magic monster they can turn into. Idk I thought of it literally just now. I feel like if the G1 players physically appeared, it would mean that they could then carry out their goals unassisted. Yes, maybe they'd still have amnesia, but even if that means they then got the G2 players to help each of them in their own ways, it would take the story more away from the G2 players, whom I think the story should definitely focus on the most. It could work if we wanted it to, but I think it would have to drastically change the story if we did. That's how I feel. It would greatly change the story. It would only work if there were something to make the G2s each work with and stick close to their G2 counterparts (magical bond that physically keeps them close? strong compulsion? half-remembered memories of the purpose of the Great Seal making them just really feel like they SHOULD, even if they don't remember why? they start disappearing if they get too far away?). It's good to start thinking of those now, I think. Especially since we'll almost certainly need to make up Chosen to go with our own. Of course, we'll need to be sure we don't get carried away and make a billion character ideas that we can't fit. So maybe we should actually wait until we know who among us will be a G1 first? This actually brings up something i've been meaning to talk about- Should the G2s have roughly the same core concept/driving wish powering them as their G1 counterpart did? |
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COWDYDF
Jul 22, 2015 17:21:51 GMT -5
Post by Commander Tumbles on Jul 22, 2015 17:21:51 GMT -5
All right, let's just go with Light/Dark! But yeah, my idea was that, while the two sides do represent their ideals (ie, structure and freedom, possibly) they're ultimately more concerned in upholding and defending those ideals than they are actually applying them. I see where you're coming from, I think it could work. But as I imagined them, the two Powers weren't really actually separate things from the ideals they represented. The Powers are the raw embodiment of different ways reality can unfold. Whenever water freezes (becoming more orderly), or someone sacrifices themself for somebody else, that IS Light. They aren't beings who hold and uphold ideals, they ARE ideals. Just ideals so primal and powerful that they can project physical manifestations to directly bring themselves about. Honestly I'm having trouble explaining it...[/quote] Radical. Hmm... I think I see where you're going with that, and it does raise some neat philosophical questions. For instance, would the Sun be considered Light or Dark? On the one hand, obviously, it's the source of all light on our planet. On the other hand, it's a mass of atoms constantly changing form and aspect, making it a very chaotic place, and thus Dark. Although, it could also be viewed as the slow condensation of lower elements into higher ones. Would that make a black hole Light, as it's essentially a place of perfect order? Or Dark, because it's a manifestation of pure destruction? That makes a lot of sense, I completely agree. After all, Light and Dark are so much older and vaster than anything else- they would probably care for ordinary individuals as much as we care for single bacteria. Lab-grown bacteria engineered to make a certain useful compound. Thanks. That's basically what I figured would happen. A universe of complete Light is frozen stasis- perfect order that will never be disrupted, like an eternal, inanimate crystal. A universe of complete Dark is meaningless- just random chaos with no underlying structure or rules of any kind. Hmm... thinking about it now, I wonder if we should perhaps swap the titlecards for Light and Dark. From a physics perspective, light is a transference of energy, which generally requires that something be moving or changing, while dark simply is, without needing a source. I mean, sure, the Greeks views of Chaos was a pure black void, but honestly, I would think that any canvas of a purely singular color would be the perfect manifestation of Order. www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOzYGFkRXe0www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8c5wmeOL9oI guess that sounds fine. Maybe they can take animal or human form? Also, either way, the animal Elizabeth takes the form of? A human. Actually, what if a 'beast form' is just a basic power every Chosen gets? Some kind of cool magic monster they can turn into. Idk I thought of it literally just now. Let's be honest this was going to turn into a magical girl thing anyway, might as well go all out, eh? But yeah, I'm cool with that, but I think it should be rather gradual, with them learning to take on mere aspects at first, and not fully manifesting their forms until later on, perhaps around the time they all make their final costume changes... That's how I feel. It would greatly change the story. It would only work if there were something to make the G2s each work with and stick close to their G2 counterparts (magical bond that physically keeps them close? strong compulsion? half-remembered memories of the purpose of the Great Seal making them just really feel like they SHOULD, even if they don't remember why? they start disappearing if they get too far away?). Yeah, at that point they're perhaps just better off being collective figments of their imaginations.  It's good to start thinking of those now, I think. Especially since we'll almost certainly need to make up Chosen to go with our own. Of course, we'll need to be sure we don't get carried away and make a billion character ideas that we can't fit. So maybe we should actually wait until we know who among us will be a G1 first? This actually brings up something i've been meaning to talk about- Should the G2s have roughly the same core concept/driving wish powering them as their G1 counterpart did? I dunno about the same wish so much. Maybe some would, but I imagine most would make their own wish based on their own experiences, that're perhaps influenced by their guides. But I do think they should have the same impulses and interests, since they are inherently the same person at their core, just with a different upbringing, and therefore a different set of values as well. So I think they would have similar powersets also. But yeah, I've been thinking about concepts some. The first thing I centered around was that each character should have a basic equal opposite. Like, if there's a Sun-based character, then there should be a Moon-based character on the other side. This could give us some basic framework interactions between those characters as well. Anyway, my ideas: - Flesh: The character I had in mind was a guy who discovered he had the power of Flesh, by first accidentally reanimating someone with it. Upon learning the identity of his power, he just to the conclusion that it just makes him a necromancer of sorts (not realizing until far later that it actually gives him life powers as well), and then goes on to create his own army of the dead. The whole army things stems from his wanting to join the military, and further rejection, perhaps due to a physical or mental debility. I think he would work well as a main POV character and antagonist. His opposite could possibly be Soul (who would obviously have spooky ghost powers), but I also really like the sound of Dust (who I can only imagine breaks things down to their basic, primordial matter and reforms them into different shapes at will. Perhaps, unlike the Flesh player who affects the flesh of mortals, the Dust player could affect Outsiders in a similar way...).
- Color: I showed my idea for the Color player earlier. He uses his powers to create illusions, primarily, and acts as a trickster, wandering around messing with the other players, which actually turns out to simply be due to a personality disorder of some kind, where he simply doesn't know how to make friends. His opposite would most likely be Sound, whom I have not thought a lot about. Probably a musician? I dunno.
- The last pair are something along the lines of Progress and Nature, but I haven't settled on what the exact nature of their powers would entail, mainly because I hate the idea of powers that are pigeonholed to a few specific cases. Like, what exactly would super-science powers entail? Which is why I also wanted to tie them to the Sun and the Moon, or maybe explain it as one being intelligence and the other being wisdom. Like I said, I have some ideas, but no entirely satisfying ones yet.
- As for Alex and Elizabeth, I dunno, I have this idea that, since they're the core of the story, they would have to have some broad yet narrow archetypal powers, like maybe Creation and Destruction, but on the other hand, that also seems rather OP. But maybe they are just OP. Life ain't fair. I suppose they could also work well as the Flesh/Dust characters (not the ones I had in mind earlier, I suppose they'd be replaced).
Also, I think I've come around to the idea of having it set on modern Earth. You're right, it is just easier to do, while at the same time more inherently relatable to readers. Besides, we'll probably only spend the first few chapters there at most anyway. Which reminds me, what's the exact nature of the layers? I mean, they're folds in space created by the magic of the Core, right? And the Core is fueled by the hopes and dreams of all Denizens, yes? So, I think that the layers should just be an amalgamation of stuff, wild things, magic, technology, civilizations, the works. I suppose, to make it easier, we could group similar things together on different layers to give each one meaning as well (ie, a sci-fiesque world, a Europeans fantasyesque world, an Asian fantasyesque world, what have you), but that's just a thought. It would definitely help break the monotony of "travelling through wilderness," while also helping explain the logistics of a technology focused character, or any character that uses a gun (or one that uses an army of zombies that use guns ). |
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COWDYDF
Jul 26, 2015 18:41:52 GMT -5
Post by Viempth on Jul 26, 2015 18:41:52 GMT -5
Radical. Hmm... I think I see where you're going with that, and it does raise some neat philosophical questions. For instance, would the Sun be considered Light or Dark? On the one hand, obviously, it's the source of all light on our planet. On the other hand, it's a mass of atoms constantly changing form and aspect, making it a very chaotic place, and thus Dark. Although, it could also be viewed as the slow condensation of lower elements into higher ones. Would that make a black hole Light, as it's essentially a place of perfect order? Or Dark, because it's a manifestation of pure destruction? Those are some good thoughts! IMO, I kind of really like where you're going with them and what the questions imply. Like, real life is a web of Light and Dark intertwining, with no one thing belonging super purely to one ideal. Of course, each of the two Powers seeks to change that by totally eliminating the other. But doing so would reduce reality, make it only half of what it once was, and so in the end the heroes reject them. Or something like that? Hmm... thinking about it now, I wonder if we should perhaps swap the titlecards for Light and Dark. From a physics perspective, light is a transference of energy, which generally requires that something be moving or changing, while dark simply is, without needing a source. I mean, sure, the Greeks views of Chaos was a pure black void, but honestly, I would think that any canvas of a purely singular color would be the perfect manifestation of Order. Hmmm, maybe! I was thinking of Light as being order/sacrifice/reason and Dark as chaos/selfishness/absurdity for a few reasons: Order/sacrifice/reason are typically associated with good, and Light is most often good in culture/mythology (same but with evil for Dark and chaos/selfishness/absurdity); Darkness represents the unknown and creates uncertainty, which fits as the chaotic Power; and Light is often associated with knowledge/science/communication (look at the word enlightenment!) and therefore fits for the Power of order and reason. Also, I think having Light/Dark that way would make it easier to 'fake out' the readers into thinking at first that it's as simple as good vs evil. But you have a good reasons to switch them, so... *shrugs* Let's be honest this was going to turn into a magical girl thing anyway, might as well go all out, eh? :P But yeah, I'm cool with that, but I think it should be rather gradual, with them learning to take on mere aspects at first, and not fully manifesting their forms until later on, perhaps around the time they all make their final costume changes... Oh hell fucking yes I am so here for this. Yeah, at that point they're perhaps just better off being collective figments of their imaginations. :o Could you explain your thoughts a bit more, please? sorry I dunno about the same wish so much. Maybe some would, but I imagine most would make their own wish based on their own experiences, that're perhaps influenced by their guides. But I do think they should have the same impulses and interests, since they are inherently the same person at their core, just with a different upbringing, and therefore a different set of values as well. So I think they would have similar powersets also. That makes sense, and is pretty much what I figured we'd go with. Of course living in a completely different time/setting they would develop largely into different people. Of course, we could alternatively pull fate/reincarnation echo bullshit and have them 'coincidentally' end up in roughly equivalent conditions and circumstances as they did before the first instance of the War... But yeah, I've been thinking about concepts some. The first thing I centered around was that each character should have a basic equal opposite. Like, if there's a Sun-based character, then there should be a Moon-based character on the other side. This could give us some basic framework interactions between those characters as well. I think that could totally work. Of course, it could also potentially be too limiting, and it would seem sort of odd if the different people from all over the world who were Chosen by each Power just so happened to come in ideological pairs... *shrugs harder* Anyway, my ideas: -list cut for space- These are some good ideas! Of course, we do need to keep in mind that each one needs to be the natural result of the character's deepest wish, ideology, or hope. Also, I think I've come around to the idea of having it set on modern Earth. You're right, it is just easier to do, while at the same time more inherently relatable to readers. Besides, we'll probably only spend the first few chapters there at most anyway. Which reminds me, what's the exact nature of the layers? I mean, they're folds in space created by the magic of the Core, right? And the Core is fueled by the hopes and dreams of all Denizens, yes? So, I think that the layers should just be an amalgamation of stuff, wild things, magic, technology, civilizations, the works. I suppose, to make it easier, we could group similar things together on different layers to give each one meaning as well (ie, a sci-fiesque world, a Europeans fantasyesque world, an Asian fantasyesque world, what have you), but that's just a thought. It would definitely help break the monotony of "travelling through wilderness," while also helping explain the logistics of a technology focused character, or any character that uses a gun (or one that uses an army of zombies that use guns :P). Alright, modern Earth setting for G2! Cool. I really like your idea of having similar ideas from the populace clumping together to form layers with common themes! I feel like there's a lot of potential there for scenery, challenges, and for creatures living in the planes. Maybe each layer could be largely based off of a common human desire or belief, and have unique laws of physics to go along with it. |
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COWDYDF
Jul 31, 2015 9:26:18 GMT -5
Post by Commander Tumbles on Jul 31, 2015 9:26:18 GMT -5
Those are some good thoughts! IMO, I kind of really like where you're going with them and what the questions imply. Like, real life is a web of Light and Dark intertwining, with no one thing belonging super purely to one ideal. Of course, each of the two Powers seeks to change that by totally eliminating the other. But doing so would reduce reality, make it only half of what it once was, and so in the end the heroes reject them. Or something like that? Essentially. My idea for the ending was that, once the Elizabeth ordeal was taken care of (however we choose to do it), then they could turn the full power of the wish towards keeping the Outsiders out permanently (however that would work). Hmmm, maybe! I was thinking of Light as being order/sacrifice/reason and Dark as chaos/selfishness/absurdity for a few reasons: Order/sacrifice/reason are typically associated with good, and Light is most often good in culture/mythology (same but with evil for Dark and chaos/selfishness/absurdity); Darkness represents the unknown and creates uncertainty, which fits as the chaotic Power; and Light is often associated with knowledge/science/communication (look at the word enlightenment!) and therefore fits for the Power of order and reason. Also, I think having Light/Dark that way would make it easier to 'fake out' the readers into thinking at first that it's as simple as good vs evil. But you have a good reasons to switch them, so... *shrugs* I was worried about that too, but I think we could accomplish the same thing by simply withholding information or giving misleading details through our unreliable narrators, that is, whatever outsiders explain this to the heroes. They are very biased after all, so were someone to ask a Light agent what the essence of LIght is, he would say something along the lines of "Boundless freedom and purity," while describing dark as "blinding subjugation and evil." Or something along those lines. It could also be that the Outsiders simply don't perceive light and dark the way we do. Hell, now I'm thinking about Zaheer from Avatar, who was an enlightened monk who was also a super-anarchist. Could you explain your thoughts a bit more, please? sorry I think that could totally work. Of course, it could also potentially be too limiting, and it would seem sort of odd if the different people from all over the world who were Chosen by each Power just so happened to come in ideological pairs... *shrugs harder* I just kind of imagined the guides being things that could only be seen by other Chosen/guides, as opposed to Agents and other NPCs. I also kind of assumed that the Agents sought out these few individual specifically because they already possessed a great deal of power. I also think that there should actually be many other "Chosen" as well, all of which are a new batch from the current crop of humanity. The main characters are, of course, all ones that were reincarnated from before, and even ones that aren't a story focus can be distinguished by the fact that they have a guide floating around them. Maybe the original wishers were just a few of a larger group of Chosen that actually managed to make it to the Core. Or maybe they were the only few to begin with. I just think it's easier or rather, more symbolically fitting to represent the equal and opposite nature of the Powers by having characters that are also equal and opposite in nature. But it's just a thought. That makes sense, and is pretty much what I figured we'd go with. Of course living in a completely different time/setting they would develop largely into different people. Of course, we could alternatively pull fate/reincarnation echo bullshit and have them 'coincidentally' end up in roughly equivalent conditions and circumstances as they did before the first instance of the War... Yeah, them being entirely different people is what I was figuring. It'd make more interesting Guide/Player interactiosn if they weren't constantly agreeing with each other. These are some good ideas! Of course, we do need to keep in mind that each one needs to be the natural result of the character's deepest wish, ideology, or hope. Fair enough. Alright, modern Earth setting for G2! Cool. I really like your idea of having similar ideas from the populace clumping together to form layers with common themes! I feel like there's a lot of potential there for scenery, challenges, and for creatures living in the planes. Maybe each layer could be largely based off of a common human desire or belief, and have unique laws of physics to go along with it. I actually just looked up the 16 most common desires and needs. It's actually fairly interesting. It would be a lot of work, but I wonder if we could make it into a good setting... |
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COWDYDF
Aug 3, 2015 13:34:16 GMT -5
Post by Viempth on Aug 3, 2015 13:34:16 GMT -5
Essentially. My idea for the ending was that, once the Elizabeth ordeal was taken care of (however we choose to do it), then they could turn the full power of the wish towards keeping the Outsiders out permanently (however that would work). Yeah, I figured something along those lines as well. Perhaps turning the power of the Worldcore back to the population, or using it to further humanity as a whole somehow. I was worried about that too, but I think we could accomplish the same thing by simply withholding information or giving misleading details through our unreliable narrators, that is, whatever outsiders explain this to the heroes. They are very biased after all, so were someone to ask a Light agent what the essence of LIght is, he would say something along the lines of "Boundless freedom and purity," while describing dark as "blinding subjugation and evil." Or something along those lines. It could also be that the Outsiders simply don't perceive light and dark the way we do. Hell, now I'm thinking about Zaheer from Avatar, who was an enlightened monk who was also a super-anarchist. That could work. I just feel like the whole Darkness -> primordial void/chaos thing might be a bit to rooted in the popular culture/mythos, to the degree that changing that would seem strange and off-putting to people. But I'm totally down for switching the names of Light/Dark if you really want to, let's do it. I just kind of imagined the guides being things that could only be seen by other Chosen/guides, as opposed to Agents and other NPCs. I agree. I imagine the guides as intangible and just kind of constantly floating around by their host, only being visible to Chosen. I also kind of assumed that the Agents sought out these few individual specifically because they already possessed a great deal of power. I also think that there should actually be many other "Chosen" as well, all of which are a new batch from the current crop of humanity. The main characters are, of course, all ones that were reincarnated from before, and even ones that aren't a story focus can be distinguished by the fact that they have a guide floating around them. Maybe the original wishers were just a few of a larger group of Chosen that actually managed to make it to the Core. Or maybe they were the only few to begin with. Personally, I think that we should keep the Chosen numbers low, limiting them just to the main characters, having equal numbers of Chosen in G1 and G2, and having all G1 Chosen be reborn. As for who gets Chosen, I imagined that it was based primarily on personality or belief. Each Power's Agents pick those few from the population whom they deem most likely to follow and aid that side. I just think it's easier or rather, more symbolically fitting to represent the equal and opposite nature of the Powers by having characters that are also equal and opposite in nature. But it's just a thought. I'm fine with paired opposites as well, I just worry that it could overly limit our creative freedom or come across as contrived and silly. Yeah, them being entirely different people is what I was figuring. It'd make more interesting Guide/Player interactiosn if they weren't constantly agreeing with each other. :P Yes, they should definitely be different people. However, if they're going to be totally different, with no similarities between what they or their personalities are like, it raises the question of why we should make them the G1s reincarnated in the first place. I actually just looked up the 16 most common desires and needs. It's actually fairly interesting. It would be a lot of work, but I wonder if we could make it into a good setting... Cool! Can you post the list or a link to the list here? |
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COWDYDF
Aug 5, 2015 11:08:02 GMT -5
Post by Commander Tumbles on Aug 5, 2015 11:08:02 GMT -5
Yeah, I figured something along those lines as well. Perhaps turning the power of the Worldcore back to the population, or using it to further humanity as a whole somehow. Kewl. That could work. I just feel like the whole Darkness -> primordial void/chaos thing might be a bit to rooted in the popular culture/mythos, to the degree that changing that would seem strange and off-putting to people. But I'm totally down for switching the names of Light/Dark if you really want to, let's do it. I think it could work well. It could be rather strange and different to some people, but, if we dropped a few hints and gave it enough time to soak, by the time we actually out and reveal it, I imagine most people will have come around to the story's point of view. I agree. I imagine the guides as intangible and just kind of constantly floating around by their host, only being visible to Chosen. Swet. Personally, I think that we should keep the Chosen numbers low, limiting them just to the main characters, having equal numbers of Chosen in G1 and G2, and having all G1 Chosen be reborn. As for who gets Chosen, I imagined that it was based primarily on personality or belief. Each Power's Agents pick those few from the population whom they deem most likely to follow and aid that side. Well, I imagined that all the G1 players would be reborn, but I was wondering if the Powers That Be would put all their eggs in one basket and trust that these already powerful people would do the job, and that they shouldn't grant power to some more just in case. Mainly I just wanted some more characters that we could have recur, yet could also be disposable if need be. I only ever imagined that only the main Chosen would ever make it to the Core. But that was just a thought. I'm fine with paired opposites as well, I just worry that it could overly limit our creative freedom or come across as contrived and silly. POssibly, or it could be a strong foundation for the story. I'm sure we can change it if we start to run into problems. Yes, they should definitely be different people. However, if they're going to be totally different, with no similarities between what they or their personalities are like, it raises the question of why we should make them the G1s reincarnated in the first place. Well, I didn't say they should be totally different either, my thought was that they have the same impulses, desires, and interests, yet could also possibly have different philosophies or tactics when it comes to dealing with a given thing. Maybe. I actually just looked up the 16 most common desires and needs. It's actually fairly interesting. It would be a lot of work, but I wonder if we could make it into a good setting... Cool! Can you post the list or a link to the list here?[/quote] www.mindfulnessmuse.com/individual-differences/16-universal-desires-and-what-drives-your-behavior-part-onewww.mindfulnessmuse.com/individual-differences/16-universal-desires-what-drives-your-behavior-part-two |
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COWDYDF
Aug 12, 2015 23:29:30 GMT -5
Post by Viempth on Aug 12, 2015 23:29:30 GMT -5
I think it could work well. It could be rather strange and different to some people, but, if we dropped a few hints and gave it enough time to soak, by the time we actually out and reveal it, I imagine most people will have come around to the story's point of view. Well, I didn't imagine that there would be much to reveal? It's not like the nature of each Power would be exactly hidden, or at least I didn't think it would be. I think that swapping the names of Light and Dark could probably work, but the way that light reveals while darkness conceals makes me a little unsure of whether the mythological associations would work as well with swapped names/brightness values. Well, I imagined that all the G1 players would be reborn, but I was wondering if the Powers That Be would put all their eggs in one basket and trust that these already powerful people would do the job, and that they shouldn't grant power to some more just in case. Mainly I just wanted some more characters that we could have recur, yet could also be disposable if need be. I only ever imagined that only the main Chosen would ever make it to the Core. But that was just a thought. I figured that the cap on how many Chosen each side got would be the same in each generation, but I suppose we could say that there are more G2s because the human population is significantly higher in that era and the number of Chosen is proportional to the overall population. However, I'm not sure I like the idea of having 'extra' 'disposable' Chosen for the narrative, personally. POssibly, or it could be a strong foundation for the story. I'm sure we can change it if we start to run into problems. :P Alright. Well, I didn't say they should be totally different either, my thought was that they have the same impulses, desires, and interests, yet could also possibly have different philosophies or tactics when it comes to dealing with a given thing. Maybe. Shrug. I personally like the idea of establishing strong parallels between the two sets of Chosen, both in backstory and as the plot plays out. I think that having sort of mirrored events and interactions between the different incarnations of the same people would be really cool, especially if we also add intentional contrasts. For example, maybe in G1 a certain Chosen killed another Chosen, but for those two's G2 incarnations the situation swaps- the reincarnated victim becomes the killer of the reincarnated murderer. Or perhaps, is offered the chance to, but shows mercy instead? IDK, I don't think I can explain it very well or come up with lots of examples right now. Also, thanks for the links! :D |
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COWDYDF
Aug 13, 2015 9:22:21 GMT -5
Post by Commander Tumbles on Aug 13, 2015 9:22:21 GMT -5
Well, I didn't imagine that there would be much to reveal? It's not like the nature of each Power would be exactly hidden, or at least I didn't think it would be. I think that swapping the names of Light and Dark could probably work, but the way that light reveals while darkness conceals makes me a little unsure of whether the mythological associations would work as well with swapped names/brightness values. Well, I figured that the Agents would just be really vague whenever they're first describing the nature of the Powers to the Chosen, maybe because they already assume that the Denizens would know all about it already simply because they do, having developed with only the conflict between the powers, maybe they can't comprehend that anyone wouldn't know all about the nature of Light and Dark. Maybe sort of like how Kyuubey can't comprehend empathy or something along those lines. And really, both Light and Dark can obscure, when brought to their extremes. I've actually kind of grown to like that they could have their own mythological connotations that don't gel with their actual meanings, because the people who created the myths didn't truly understand how they worked. Perhaps it could be a statement on how myths and legends, while compelling and powerful, aren't necessarily true. Or something like that. I figured that the cap on how many Chosen each side got would be the same in each generation, but I suppose we could say that there are more G2s because the human population is significantly higher in that era and the number of Chosen is proportional to the overall population. However, I'm not sure I like the idea of having 'extra' 'disposable' Chosen for the narrative, personally. Yeah, that was my main reasoning. I dunno, it just seems to me that if the Powers gave... powers to the original chosen in exchange for their service, it would be because they're really desperate or somesuch, so even though in G2, they found individuals that were already powerful (and maybe they strongly suspect the cause), they would still try to branch out and snag some more helpers just in case. I just figured they'd provide and extra layer of challenge/interaction for the actual Chosen without necessarily having plot armor to protect them. But it would also be weird to have random powered people just popping out of the woodwork, but maybe it could also send a message to the main characters just how much the Powers don't really value them as individuals. Just a thought. Shrug. I personally like the idea of establishing strong parallels between the two sets of Chosen, both in backstory and as the plot plays out. I think that having sort of mirrored events and interactions between the different incarnations of the same people would be really cool, especially if we also add intentional contrasts. For example, maybe in G1 a certain Chosen killed another Chosen, but for those two's G2 incarnations the situation swaps- the reincarnated victim becomes the killer of the reincarnated murderer. Or perhaps, is offered the chance to, but shows mercy instead? IDK, I don't think I can explain it very well or come up with lots of examples right now. Also, thanks for the links!  That sounds good to me. By the way, have you come up with any character concepts? I'd love to hear them if you have, even if they're vague. |
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COWDYDF
Aug 22, 2015 1:34:26 GMT -5
Post by Viempth on Aug 22, 2015 1:34:26 GMT -5
Well, I figured that the Agents would just be really vague whenever they're first describing the nature of the Powers to the Chosen, maybe because they already assume that the Denizens would know all about it already simply because they do, having developed with only the conflict between the powers, maybe they can't comprehend that anyone wouldn't know all about the nature of Light and Dark. Maybe sort of like how Kyuubey can't comprehend empathy or something along those lines. I assumed kind of the opposite- each Chosen would be visited by an Agent of the power that chose them who would basically make a (tailored to their species and culture) 'sales pitch' for why you should totally follow THEIR Power, it's the best and here's why, also the other one is totally evil so you should fight it. And really, both Light and Dark can obscure, when brought to their extremes. I've actually kind of grown to like that they could have their own mythological connotations that don't gel with their actual meanings, because the people who created the myths didn't truly understand how they worked. Perhaps it could be a statement on how myths and legends, while compelling and powerful, aren't necessarily true. Or something like that. Eh, I guess. Yeah, that was my main reasoning. I dunno, it just seems to me that if the Powers gave... powers to the original chosen in exchange for their service, it would be because they're really desperate or somesuch, so even though in G2, they found individuals that were already powerful (and maybe they strongly suspect the cause), they would still try to branch out and snag some more helpers just in case. I just figured they'd provide and extra layer of challenge/interaction for the actual Chosen without necessarily having plot armor to protect them. But it would also be weird to have random powered people just popping out of the woodwork, but maybe it could also send a message to the main characters just how much the Powers don't really value them as individuals. Just a thought. I didn't figure the Powers were desperate. They need an inhabitant of the planet to use the Worldcore, and a mortal ally is more likely to succeed in reaching the Worldcore if their magical potential is unlocked. I also figured that the Powers would have no idea that the G1s were hanging around. The G2s wouldn't already have any unlocked magical power, and the Powers couldn't detect the G1s, who only exist in the G2s minds. I mean I'm fine with having extra Chosen I guess, I just prefer not to add any, especially since there are already going to be a ton of characters between all the G2s and their paired G1 spirits... I didn't figure that being a G2 inherently made one a main character or protagonist, there are bound to be lots of extraneous ones. That sounds good to me. By the way, have you come up with any character concepts? I'd love to hear them if you have, even if they're vague. :P Alright well, I do have a couple that I mentioned at the start of this reboot. What they boil down to are: 1) Someone whose main desire is companionship, or not being alone. Their magical power is completely externalized as a swirly energy version of what their beast form should look like, and acts as a semi-independent creature and ally. Their magic powers could include forming empathetic bonds with their allies that share emotions and information, and the ability to instantly 'leap' through timespace to any of these bonded allies. The Chsoen themself would be pretty much an ordinary human, since their power exists outside of them as an autonomous being, 2) Someone who always felt weak and inferior, and wished to become strong and prove those who doubted them wrong. Their magic just makes the super strong, fast, and intelligent, to an absurd degree. Also, have some Elizabeth doodles, from me trying to figure out what she could look like  I will end suffering.I decided to give her a pure grey-scale palette, and also gave her very pale skin and black hair so she herself wouldn't disrupt the monochromatic look. As for her outfit, it's a heavy coat with thick gloves, pants, and boots; she also has some kind of thinner, tight shirt with a high neck. I gave her a nurse hat, but with a 'null' symbol instead of a cross on it. After all, she is doing her best to heal and save the world. As for her features, I tried to make her face very dramatic and angular. What do you think? |
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COWDYDF
Aug 30, 2015 14:27:38 GMT -5
Post by Commander Tumbles on Aug 30, 2015 14:27:38 GMT -5
I assumed kind of the opposite- each Chosen would be visited by an Agent of the power that chose them who would basically make a (tailored to their species and culture) 'sales pitch' for why you should totally follow THEIR Power, it's the best and here's why, also the other one is totally evil so you should fight it. Well, that was along the lines of what I was thinking as well. Hmm... I guess it depends on what kind of tone we want to set for the story. If it's a more lighthearted adventure story, then we could have the light is order and dark is chaos, but if we wanted a more serious/darker story then the roles would be reversed, and the Powers would be much less trustworthy, or at least act as unreliable narrators. As of yet that's mainly how I've been imagining it. I also thought about it some more, in the contexts of government this time. It seems to me that more open governments, democracy and the like, work on the free flow of information, whereas more command-based, orderly ones obscure information from the general populace to keep them in line. I dunno, just a thought I had. I didn't figure the Powers were desperate. They need an inhabitant of the planet to use the Worldcore, and a mortal ally is more likely to succeed in reaching the Worldcore if their magical potential is unlocked. I also figured that the Powers would have no idea that the G1s were hanging around. The G2s wouldn't already have any unlocked magical power, and the Powers couldn't detect the G1s, who only exist in the G2s minds. I mean I'm fine with having extra Chosen I guess, I just prefer not to add any, especially since there are already going to be a ton of characters between all the G2s and their paired G1 spirits... I didn't figure that being a G2 inherently made one a main character or protagonist, there are bound to be lots of extraneous ones. Ah, I had the idea that there were only a few G1/G2 pairs, and they would all be important to the story. It's fine by me if there are more of them and some of them jsut aren't important characters in the long run, but it jsut raises the question that, if the Powers don't know about the inherent power of the G2s, or if the G2s didn't have any at all, why out of 7 billion people on earth they would manage to hone in on those few that had been chosen before. Alright well, I do have a couple that I mentioned at the start of this reboot. What they boil down to are: 1) Someone whose main desire is companionship, or not being alone. Their magical power is completely externalized as a swirly energy version of what their beast form should look like, and acts as a semi-independent creature and ally. Their magic powers could include forming empathetic bonds with their allies that share emotions and information, and the ability to instantly 'leap' through timespace to any of these bonded allies. The Chsoen themself would be pretty much an ordinary human, since their power exists outside of them as an autonomous being, 2) Someone who always felt weak and inferior, and wished to become strong and prove those who doubted them wrong. Their magic just makes the super strong, fast, and intelligent, to an absurd degree. Also, have some Elizabeth doodles, from me trying to figure out what she could look like I will end suffering.I decided to give her a pure grey-scale palette, and also gave her very pale skin and black hair so she herself wouldn't disrupt the monochromatic look. As for her outfit, it's a heavy coat with thick gloves, pants, and boots; she also has some kind of thinner, tight shirt with a high neck. I gave her a nurse hat, but with a 'null' symbol instead of a cross on it. After all, she is doing her best to heal and save the world. As for her features, I tried to make her face very dramatic and angular. What do you think? I like those ideas, the first one reminds me of a Pathfinder Summoner, and I'm defofo getting some Jekyll and Hyde vibes from the other, which is always cool. I also like Elizabeth's design. Truth be told, it actually reinforces this one notion I've had for Elizabeth as an atomic bomb allegory or something along those lines, as someone who destroys absolutely and indiscriminately, like the weapon itself, while only having had the best intentions, like those that developed it in the first place. I dunno, that's just something that's been brewing in my head since you first described her. |
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